Daisy Cutter Protoype

[teacher]

This looks real interesting...
I contacted Erica today to voice my interest in one when the time comes .... :thumbup:

 

[vector001]

^ thanks, brother dinozzo! - it's a humble work in progress.

......



i was intrigued by the idea of having a removable handle on the Daisy Cutter, just as a lot of the brethren suggested;

the chassis-style Melee Handle suggested that making the Melee Handle modular could be done without reworking the handle, so i layed up another handle right quick and drilled some though holes through it in areas that wouldn't interfere with grip or weaken or stiffen the handle in key areas, such as the angled areas, which are key to the forgiveness of the handle;

pardon the clunky screws - fact is, they are all i had at hand before i do something slick, and more importantly; THEY WORK! - AND it's ALWAYS good to know a brother grunt can use something simple to get her done, if he needs to get new fasteners;

this feels like a great strike angle in the offhand to strip or trap an enemy weapon and gut him with your long knife. (slurp. whoops, drooling again....)

held vertically and bit-forward (below), the balance of the Daisy Cutter gets other-worldly to me and seems to be almost weightless until you bring her down. - due to its design, the handle is going to increasingly deflect, trap and break things that get caught in it in this hold. - if you train to fight in the dark ( - which is my favorite H2H environmental condition, short of underwater and inverted for tactical domination), i'd just twist the Daisy Cutter when you feel it slow down and wrists and necks are going to be hurting units on the other guy IMHO because of that big fang on the bottom and the locking cut-out next to it... we told him he shoulda ran....

here's a good view of the RPG on top, and the Daisy Cutter Bomb Poll that you can sign your work with...BONK.

as good as the bit is, the real business end of this thing is the Bomb Poll IMHO - because of the way the Melee Handle adds energy to it, plus its calculated PSI...;

the handle gives it tremendous energy, and the Ballast Effect of the handle will make the poll travel horizontally at horrific levels of speed and power on target with your prey's elbows and kidneys, and lower legs and outside of their knees when you are clearing a room without regard to what Dianne Feinstein thinks of ya, God Bless her....

....you can just feel that dirty terrorist getting swept out of your way with a fluid side sweep as you clothes-line his worthless ragdoll'd neck on a nice long knife in the edge-forward underhand, when he gets lifted to your right from the impact... eat this, ya taliban turd-bird. sliTTTTttt.

Mom might have to say it's okay to hit people after she gets one of these for Christmas....

it just needs some tool attachments now, and some make-up and little refinements....

this sure was a fun week.

thanks for lookin'.

vec

 

[vector001]

This looks real interesting...
I contacted Erica today to voice my interest in one when the time comes .... :thumbup:

....onward...! :thumbup:


vec

 

[teacher]

hehehe!

i hear ya on the techno-jazz - it is a bit dry, isn't it. but it's got to be told.

at least ya know that anyone who would bore you to death like me is probably telling the facts - LOL.

vec

You know, as "mixed up" as I get reading and trying to understand what all you say in this thread Vec, as evidenced by the two quoted posts below;
I just gotta believe it is true...... :thumbup:

Anybody who could write all the stuff you have written about this...... has got to have done his homework and given this a pile of thought.... :thumbup:

I cant wait to get one of these 'Bad Boys'.

no.

you are assuming a few things, including that there is normal feedback; there's not.

its not too square for a combatives handle either , especially when fiber-aligned composites come into play.

this handle material, plus the angles, breaks the normal rules of feedback into the hand.

the Ultility Handle Version will be rounded more, but you lose indexing, and frankly, with fiber-aligned composites, the handle is so forgiving, in most cases i could make it more jagged, and it would still be a dream in the hand compared to wood, Micarta, typical phenolic moosh handles, and steel variations.

a lot of makers don't have a clue about the math of the hand either - there are handle constants that feel good in a large array of hand sizes and shapes - the flats of these handles lock into the meat of your hand and provide more surface area than a rounded handle, which causes tears and blisters because it is making pressure points on your flesh, similar to what folks commonly think the small radiusses on these handles do, but they don't act the same way; - you wouldn't feel the radiussed edges of my handles even if they were sharpened more in most cases, because your hand isn't coming in contact with them.

the only time squared handles with a bit of radius hurt the hand, is when the hand math isn't followed - the grip can't be too big or two small, and the angles should be optimized. - that's where most of the confusion comes from. - people look at the handle by particulars instead of as a total system.

we are used to that.

it's fun to watch peoples' eyes bug when they try it.

grab it instinctively and it snaps right into your hand.

like i said, it's outside of everyone's experience and colored expectations. we wind up with a lot of former critics that become great buddies because of stuff like that.

i don't expect anyone to believe me, that's why we have the unconditional Happiness Guarantee on all our stuff.

as the Rangers say - hua?

the angle of the hand when you use the bit is not at a right angle to the chopping media either, like on a conventional handle, plus you have the reflex characteristics that would be present in this handle no matter what it was made out of, composite or titanium, or whatever - so feedback is diminished greatly, so we are allowed to make the handle blocky, which helpos greatly in fights and attacks in H2H, somethng i have alot of real experience with, so i have some concrete views of what i want in designs.

so; i think you made a very good suggestion for conventional materials, but it doesn't apply to my composites in most cases.

i didn't explain it well - some things are too simple to convey completely.

better to just pick it up and say "oh."

Math of the Hand.

vec

the ounce per inch rule is for (what i consider to be) a proper tomahawk.

the head weighs 16.1 Ounces, so it can take down doors with low effort, especially with the Melee Handle design, but like a proper hawk, be a manageable weight, so a grunt can take it anywhere the Shit is.

the Cold Steel Rifleman's Hawk head weighs about 24 Ounces when you trim its poll off - if you could put a reflexed handle on it, it would be like a War Hammer on crack, but it'd be a little heavy to carry around all the time. - the Daisy Cutter is designed to stay with you, not left behind in the HumVee. that 8 ounce difference between heads, coupled with the Daisy Cutter's frictional coefficents, maul-like primary edge, angle approaches on target, and much more, will make it greatly outclass the heavier modified Rifleman's hawk though - i am saying this as a great lover of the Mod'd Riflemans Hawk BTW.

i don't know what the heck the Daisy Cutter is, but it ain't a hawk.

- it does have a lot of tomahawk characteristics, and if the center line of the reflexed Melee handle was straightened out, it would be pretty close to my proper tomahawk ounce-per-inch-of-length maxim - so i guess what it would be considered would be subjective in one way, but objective in another, depending on whether you looked at it scientifically or not.

Hell, i don't know what it is, brother - it will probably be called a tomahawk, because that's what folks know.

the problem with most non-linear/curved handles is that they sacrifice something on designs that use both sides of the head - i can't think of one that doesn't, but there might be one - not so with the Daisy Cutter's angles...;

it's a great hammer. it's a great chopper. plus more. it's ready to rawk any way ya point it.

i just know i like it. call it whatever. it's simply a Daisy Cutter to me.

it'll only get better.
......

anyays, more on the development arc;

when i developed the Generation 1 Series Tomahawks, it was with a mind to just improve what i have always thought was a totally overlooked tool that was also a fantastic weapon; the proper hawk. good knives were the only other thing that i could think of that were so good at being great weapons and great tools at the same time, with little compromise - and a hawk and a knife made a great pair, in my perception of things H2H;

but with the Daisy Cutters the development process was completely different;

it started out as just numbers representing force vectors and ergonomics and feedback locations in sort of a shorthand/dinner napkin kinda thingy,

then it became a physics diagram - at that point there was no identifiable form,

- then the figures were defined into two-dimensional zones,

...and then the design was elevated to 3 dimensions in physical models and CAD, and cross-checked against each other via various physical tests and virtual diagnostics. we are continuing to test it at this time - it's teaching me as much as i am confirming right now, in fact.

now the Daisy Cutter is in the late prototype stage, next will be full production, God Willing.

the name Daisy Cutter came to be for a variety of reasons, starting with the profile of thje poll - it looks exactly like a bomb! - it hits like one too.

the top of the head looks like an RPG rocket to me too.

the whole head looks like it fell off a stealth bomber.

- i had nothing to do with that. - it's just what the cold and hard numbers demanded.

seeing these characteristics take form felt like a good omen.

it's gonna be something different.

new rules.
.........
the current heads are made of zone-tempered 5160 by a heat treat shop that really knows its stuff. we are not limited to any alloy at this time, but the 5160 seems to be great stuff when it is tempered right. i've forged knives out of it that took a lot of abuse, plus the design of the head and handle work in concert to absorb a lot of shock, so i think this alloy choice will work great for us.

the edges on the head are (what i would call) a modified saber grind, and the head is symmetric on both sides of the longitudinal plane that bisects the middle. it will be easy to sharpen and keep sharp. folks could bring the edge down in angle, but i would highlyu recommend they try all the grips first, because this head is going to break a lot of conventions.

i have a lot of suggestions i want to include with the final product - try all the grips before modding is probably number one - the Daisy Cutter, by feel alone, should teach the end-user quite a bit too.

the handle grip angles will allow you to split wood like with a little maul, but also slice, like a much thinner hawk-like bit would do, because of the edge structures in relation to your grip, as i have repeated.

you can tell i am excited.

vec

Yep, I can sure tell !!!

It must be catching too, I just found this thread today.....
and I'm excited too!! ...............

....onward...! :thumbup:

vec

AMEN !!!! :thumbup:

 

[Gldn Eagle]

Cool design I like it.

 

[mk77]

my reasoning for a hammer attachment was 1. you can stalk the zombie and shatter there cervical spinal column, hide the body and not leave a blood trail for other zombie to follow 2. when fortifying your base, home, whatever, a hammer is a very handy, usefull and multi-purpose tool.

 

[vector001]

my reasoning for a hammer attachment was 1. you can stalk the zombie and shatter there cervical spinal column, hide the body and not leave a blood trail for other zombie to follow 2. when fortifying your base, home, whatever, a hammer is a very handy, usefull and multi-purpose tool.

there is already a hammer poll on it, brother.


you've been holding out on me - where are you getting your supply of zombies? - communists don't count, that's cheating.

vec

 

[wnease]

okay I've lurked long enough... AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It has a pile of features that make me do the "wish I'd thought of that, and that, and that..."

PLUS it looks very cool!

Got any test video, preferably destructive and abusive?

BTW road-killed deer make pretty good zombie substitutes if you have a spot to drag them after... just keep your mouth closed during the impacts...

 

[vector001]

okay I've lurked long enough... AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It has a pile of features that make me do the "wish I'd thought of that, and that, and that..."

PLUS it looks very cool!

Got any test video, preferably destructive and abusive?

BTW road-killed deer make pretty good zombie substitutes if you have a spot to drag them after... just keep your mouth closed during the impacts...

glad to see ya here, brother.

i haven't "rung out" the design to any degree, but the build concepts are ones i used in aerospace, plus i checked them with Solidworks Diagnostics Tools, which are pretty decent.

- of course, we will tear it up when we are ready for pre-production. i've got giant gorillas at SEAL Team 3 for that locally, and if they fail to test it, i will let my 6-year-old and the wolf pack go at it...:thumbup:

the tool attachments are what intrigue me. - that is going to put a lot of stress on the tool.

Hawk-a-geddon is half the fun in making these things.

it keeps you humble too.

vec

 

[PayetteRucker]

I have a sickening feeling that they are going to reconvene the war tribunal in Switzerland to ban these from legal warfare. They'll be on the same list as cluster bombs, napalm and Willie Pete...

 

[crossada]

reminds me of the tool mentioned in the book "world war z" created to destroy zombies, and it too was designed by a Marine which you are too aren't ya Vec?

 

[vector001]

I have a sickening feeling that they are going to reconvene the war tribunal in Switzerland to ban these from legal warfare. They'll be on the same list as cluster bombs, napalm and Willie Pete...

maybe it'll make the Black Market price go up. :thumbup:

all the good ideas in weaponry are destined to become illegal.

vec

 

[vector001]

reminds me of the tool mentioned in the book "world war z" created to destroy zombies, and it too was designed by a Marine which you are too aren't ya Vec?

guilty!


Marines must be a breed.

vec

 

[Bushman5]

^ thanks, brother dinozzo! - it's a humble work in progress.

......



i was intrigued by the idea of having a removable handle on the Daisy Cutter, just as a lot of the brethren suggested;

the chassis-style Melee Handle suggested that making the Melee Handle modular could be done without reworking the handle, so i layed up another handle right quick and drilled some though holes through it in areas that wouldn't interfere with grip or weaken or stiffen the handle in key areas, such as the angled areas, which are key to the forgiveness of the handle;

pardon the clunky screws - fact is, they are all i had at hand before i do something slick, and more importantly; THEY WORK! - AND it's ALWAYS good to know a brother grunt can use something simple to get her done, if he needs to get new fasteners;

this feels like a great strike angle in the offhand to strip or trap an enemy weapon and gut him with your long knife. (slurp. whoops, drooling again....)

held vertically and bit-forward (below), the balance of the Daisy Cutter gets other-worldly to me and seems to be almost weightless until you bring her down. - due to its design, the handle is going to increasingly deflect, trap and break things that get caught in it in this hold. - if you train to fight in the dark ( - which is my favorite H2H environmental condition, short of underwater and inverted for tactical domination), i'd just twist the Daisy Cutter when you feel it slow down and wrists and necks are going to be hurting units on the other guy IMHO because of that big fang on the bottom and the locking cut-out next to it... we told him he shoulda ran....

here's a good view of the RPG on top, and the Daisy Cutter Bomb Poll that you can sign your work with...BONK.

as good as the bit is, the real business end of this thing is the Bomb Poll IMHO - because of the way the Melee Handle adds energy to it, plus its calculated PSI...;

the handle gives it tremendous energy, and the Ballast Effect of the handle will make the poll travel horizontally at horrific levels of speed and power on target with your prey's elbows and kidneys, and lower legs and outside of their knees when you are clearing a room without regard to what Dianne Feinstein thinks of ya, God Bless her....

....you can just feel that dirty terrorist getting swept out of your way with a fluid side sweep as you clothes-line his worthless ragdoll'd neck on a nice long knife in the edge-forward underhand, when he gets lifted to your right from the impact... eat this, ya taliban turd-bird. sliTTTTttt.

Mom might have to say it's okay to hit people after she gets one of these for Christmas....

it just needs some tool attachments now, and some make-up and little refinements....

this sure was a fun week.

thanks for lookin'.



vec

Vec, hanging out with you must one heck of a good time.

Daisies look great, cant wait to get trucking again so i can get one.

 

[vector001]

Vec, hanging out with you must one heck of a good time.

i do love the chaos - i think that makes the get-togethers the most fun.

we are starting to get a hard core crew called the Westside Pirates that get together and do some good stuff, like bushcraft and making kives and ab diving together.

the coffee flows and the fine Scotch is stolen from the helpless.

we have fun

Daisies look great, cant wait to get trucking again so i can get one.

good luck to ya on that, brother. i look down that barrel daily as well.

screw it. don't let it ever get to ya. society can go to Hell. we've got skills and we've got a team.

at any rate, when ya get a chance, make sure and truck on down here and we will howl at the moon with hawks...:thumbup:

vec

 

[jnanson]

MK77 I think you are wrong zombies don't bleed and you can't kill them. They are already dead but you can dismember them so they can't walk,crawl or make that awful noise. At least the zombies in AZ. are this way. Maybe because it's so dry here.

 

[HoosierQ]

Man...that thing is just sick and wrong...IN A GOOD WAY!!! I gotta be honest...new to this sub-forum...who would have thought that there'd be genius design work going on...with tomahawks. Truly amazing and inspiring.

 

[762 shooter]

Vec, hanging out with you must one heck of a good time.

It is. Vec is scum of the highest caliber. I begged and cajoled him to bring the daisy cutter to the WPC gathering in Joshua Tree Nat'l Park last week and he succumbed to my persistent pestering. It hardly left my hands for the week. It feels like an extension of ones arm. It was all I could do to restrain myself from bashing some unfortunate neighboring campers. Vector is an artist in tools that bring out the inner warrior in even the most atrophied warrior brain.
All I can suggest is, "GET ON THE LIST!" these will go fast when they come available.

 

[KaliSIG]

Vec,

Once you're done w/ the prototype, can you make a trainer? I'd like to see how it handles in some FMA drills.

 

[vector001]

Vec,

Once you're done w/ the prototype, can you make a trainer? I'd like to see how it handles in some FMA drills.

i'm not sure, brother.

i train with live weapons myself.

i don't have anything against trainers though, when they are built correctly - that's my main issue.

maybe we can put a screw-on rubber attachment on the bit or something. - once a trainer tool loses the weight and balance (and perhaps you agree somewhat), it becomes unrealistic to me.

i do plan on maybe doing some very short demo vids. - just to suggest my way of combatives - then everyone will slap their heads at the obviousness of it probably and expound on it with their own styles and precepts - which is as it should be IMHO. good for them. i don't like to color or jade people with too much information concerning my stuff - just spice them with some little thoughts, and see where they go with the suggestions....

the Daisy Cutter is very intuitive once you hold it because of the balance i designed into it. it's also deadlier the more you are panicking, bcause the edges start presenting themselves to the target more on the Bomb Poll, and the "Chest" of the handle on the bit-side of the handle tends to funnel over-shot targets into the sharpened beard, and then you can give the Daisy Cutter sort of a careless prying motion and things are going to break where that beard has hold of.... i love the yummy goodies.... :thumbup:

where the ECO Hawk is kind of a Thinking Man's Tool, i wanted the Daisy Cutter to do almost the opposite; to be very natural feeling and especially intuitive - it does influence one's natural choice to use the Bomb Poll though, instead of the bit-fixation that i see in a lot of hawk combatives.

it's called a Melee Handle for a reason - you clear your space on the out-stroke with the Bomb Poll, which will cream anything human that gets in the way, and then you rip and trap on the return stroke with the bit, while the 16.1 ounce head makes those moves fluid and repeatable. - i envision a lot of femorals and kidneys being torn open in these hooks, plus lost of facial cleaves after a foot-pound with the Bomb Poll causes autonomic hunching and body folding from that initial strike on opponents that try to get inside your range.

if you have the opportunity in personal combat, and it makes more sense to use a conventional bit-strike, this handle naturally flips purposefully in the hand, unlike other handles i have experienced, so you could turn an opponent off with a quick C4 tap with the bit, allowing one to move on to his buddies without having to maintain that space....

....it gives me happy thoughts....


ahem.


- lots to teach, but little to really learn, perhaps.

i wish i could just hand them out, and folks would see immediately, especially the combatives folks.




the Daisy Cutter is my cup of tea obviosly, a calm mind is really going to make it akin to a religious experience in CQB IMHO.

it's gonna be really brutal.

i like it.

vec