Damascarbotanium-----Chris Moss WiP

[Knifemaker87]

Steven,
i really wanted to say that i appreciate the constructive criticism. I like the knife how it was originally, however, i do think it looks better now. I think the guard really complements the blade and handle style better than the original design. However, i am curious as to why you think the handle and blade are mismatched in style and function. What throws them out of balance? Like Lorien said, it is kind past the changing stage, though it would be relatively easy to make a new handle to put on there if i was so inclined. So, even though i wont be changing anything on this knife, i would love to be able to use your input on future projects. While your taste my be different than Loriens, any input is very valuable to me
thanks!
~Chris

 

[Lorien]

Steven, if you feel inclined, perhaps you could respond to Chris query via pm, I don't want this WiP to go off track too much.



*************


I got everything ready to go. My carbon fiber was ready, the "mold" was set-up, I had the resin and all my spreading implements...and plenty of paper towels and acetone

I almost forgot to mention; you need some form of release agent so the resin wont stick to your blade or mold. I use at least 2 types, usually three. In this case I actually used four. The "mold" is covered with teflon tape, as is the part of the blade that isnt getting "molded". Then I wax all the parts with two layers of regular car wax. Then I used a dry mold release that comes in a spray can. Once that dried I put on a layer of poly vinyl alcohol (PVA) that is water soluble and dried to a film. Then, I wipe down the tang with a very, very light layer of grease.

Then I called for my handy shop assistant, as it is almost impossible to pick up and use a camera with resin in your hands. It is also almost impossible to pick up dry carbon fiber with sticky hands and it not turn into a huge nasty sticky mess... so I had my wife hand me the carbon fiber.

Now, mix the resin. I was using the cheapo stuff from Walmart or Lowes made by Elmers for "fiberglass repair"- this stuff sucks. It smells horrible, it is bluish green, (who decided on that?!) and it doesn't cure as well. But it is cheap, so it is what I am using. Normally I use West Systems epoxy resin, and it is what I will be using for the final handle.

Resin mixed, I brush a layer of resin on the first side of the mold. I lay a layer of fibers down and spread resin on it, making sure that I get resin into the corners and that the fibers are saturated. I repeat that process; layer of fiber, layer of resin till the first half of the mold is filled.

Then the other side, trying to get the same amount of carbon and resin on both sides, and enough that when the mold is pressed together it compresses the fibers and resin.

I set up the knife so that I could clamp it down and "suspend" the knife in the middle of the mold. However, when I clamped it, it moved the blade and so it is not centered. That is something I will change in the design on the second mold.

I put the blade in position and flipped the second half of the mold over top of it and clamped it down

Then you have to play the waiting game. As it was, I had to play longer than usual because it was slightly chilly and almost all resins are temperature sensitive. The colder they are, the slower they harden. So I went in, ate some dinner, played with the puppy, watched some TV and generally "chilled out" with my fantastic wife.

I let the resin cure for almost a day before popping it out of the mold and cleaning up the edges. when i did... it looked like this:

The blue resin was pretty apparent, as was the fact that the blade wasnt quite centered.. and I made the mold TOO LONG. So.. I took it to the bandsaw and cut it closer to size. The blade and nut released perfectly, and slid out of their custom made pockets. Concept success, process needs tweaking. I will be making the second handle later.

 

[Doug C]

Looking forward to this thread, Lorien & Chris.
..and the damascus looked familiar :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/645006-Large-drop-point-Bowie-(Hanson-style)

Doug

 

[Lorien]

Whilst working on a collaborative with a knifemaker, it is very important that the flow of communication is not impeded. The primary reason for this is that, when the patron is kept in the dark, he's missing out on some fun. The other reason is that this communication opens doors to friendship, and friendship opens doors to further purchases. For myself, the makers who I've dealt with who understand the weight that I put on communication, are ones who I will do business with in the future.

What follows, is a portion of our correspondence;


***********

I am glad you like the carbon work. It is kinda fun. I have a couple ideas on how to do it better this next time. I am going to mix in some finer carbon for a little bit of contrast in the "grain", hopefully it will be as instructive as it is fun.

I am also glad you like the guard... I think it flows pretty well. The handle idea is also a good one, though a lot of it will depend on what it looks like when I am finished shaping it. I do have access to a sand blaster here at work. I absolutely LOVE Don Fogg's textured wenge, but didnt realize it was blasted.. I was going to go for a satin finish on the handle with the sand blasted anodized ti and a blued/satin blade. I think it should go together nicely.

I like reading the threads where it is more "compact", however I rarely have the self control to not post anything before it is almost done. As it stands, I will make the final handle, and do the fitting of the gaurd and spacers before doing the rough shaping/bending of the gaurd. The ricasso on the blade is finished, but the flats have to be polished and then it will be the final fitting and tweaking. I have to say the molded handle fits together like a glove and is rock solid. I am very excited about that.



***********




I did get the second handle all made but without my shop assistant handy, (she was in washing the dishes and making cookies) I wasnt able to get any "in progress" pictures. However, the process is the same. I did have a different mold set-up however. I turned another Ti nut that was a good deal longer, and made a set of blocks to hold it in the center of the mold.

This time I used West Systems epoxy. It is pricy but it is also the best. Cleaner, less smelly, cures harder and is easier to work with. But it is like $50 a quart.

So, I made my new mold and cut some more fibers. I also wanted to point out that I covered the exposed threads on the tang with clay so the resin wouldn't get in them and "lock" the tang in place. I did the same thing on the first one.

 

[Lorien]

I pulled the second, (and hopefully final) carbon handle out of the mold. The pin locator worked great in keeping the blade centered in the "billet". The longer nut allowed me to hold the tang while still allowing for enough of a space between the end of the billet and the actual handle, as the edges and ends of a lay-up are where the most flaws are. You need enough "buffer" on all sides to get a really good part.

 

[Lorien]

While I was waiting to cut the handle out, (since I dont have a bandsaw in the garage yet) I started working on putting the foundation polish on the blade, starting with the clip. I am using a piece of corian to back my sandpaper as it is hard and stable, but wont scratch the blade like a file or steel blank.

When I am sanding bevels or clips, I use a sharpie to mark both sides. The best thing to use is lay-out dye, but most people dont have this... and a sharpie does the same thing. It allows you to see where you are sanding and makes sure you have your sanding implement flat to the clip/bevel and that you are staying off the transition line which keeps the lines crisp and clean.

This also allows you to check to make sure your clip bevels are the same on both sides by highlighting them in contrast to the blade. When I am sanding the flat of the blade I reverse the procedure and have the clip colored.

It is pretty humid in my area, and since I rarely have the time to polish a knife start to finish in one sitting, I need to protect the blade from rust, especially as the polish gets finer. I use a little axle grease and rub it on the blade. It wont evaporate or get sticky, and protects the blade very well.

 

[Lorien]

I then cut out the handle to a rough shape and to check for major flaws. It looks good. There are some very small voids that will get filled with fiber and resin, but at this point, almost all the flaws you see will be ground away, so I will wait till I have the handle rough ground before I touch it up. The holes for the handle and the nut came out perfectly and there are no voids around them. it fits the blade like it was made for it... oh wait...

 

[Shawn fu]

great wip guys-I really like the use of the CF-can't wait for the next set of pics...

 

[Lorien]

I rough cut the handle out on the bandsaw, and then fit it to the handle with the guard. I still have to cut out for the spacers, one of which I have decided should be damascus and the other being Ti, but I wanted to see if it tightened down. OOOOhhhhh boy, did it ever! The fit is like nothing I have ever seen. Even with it rough fit and the nut finger tight, I can hit the flat of the blade with my palm and there is no vibration at all. It sounds and feels like a single piece.

Then, because it is difficult to see sharpie on carbon fiber, I taped up the handle and used my pattern to get the handle a little close to the final profile.

Once I had it close.. I had to see what the final is going to look like so I put the pattern on top of the knife. I think it is going to be nice!

I also milled the slots in the spacers so I can file them in and then put in the locating pins.

My plan is to get the pieces to fit together perfectly, then tighten them all down and do the rough profiling on the spacers and guard so I can go in and get the profiling of the guard. I will bend the guard before I take all the material off to account for dings and warpage from the bending process.

 

[Lorien]

I really do enjoy the carbon lay-ups. I think I will get much better at it with some practice.. and honestly... it takes out the drudgery of cutting out the tang hole; which i really dont like. Very good thought.

I hadn't planned on sharpening the clip, but I will see what I can do. It shouldn't be too difficult. Kinda makes sense for a fighter anyway.




I got the spacers filed and on the blade... all snug and secure. They are going to need the locating pins still. I am going to be making another guard as I am not happy with a couple little dings on the fit of this guard. I will be making version 2 later.
Carbon handle, Ti spacer, Damascus spacer, Ti guard.

And after a little tweaking of the handle.. I have a tight fit with no gaps of any sort and a super secure blade.

Your idea took this from being "just another knife" to something really unique. Thanks!

 

[Lorien]

I decided that I wanted to make a second guard for two reasons; I wasn't quite happy with the tolerance of the first guard, and I wanted a little extra length to play around with for the curved sections of the guard. So I cut out a piece of Ti on the saw and put it in the vice on the bridgeport to make everything flat and square.

Once I had the block square and to the right dimensions, I used the existing part to scribe the rough location of the slot onto the face.

Now, since I had the existing part, I took the dimensions from that and figured out what I needed to cut. I dont want to bore you experienced guys with this... but inquiring minds might want to know.

The slot I wanted to make was 1.075" long and .160" wide. To cut the slot exactly that size I needed to do some simple calculations. I am using a 1/8" endmill for this.

Length: this one is easy. Simply subtract the diameter of the tool from the length you need to cut, since the machine records length of travel from the CENTER of the tool, so;
1.075" (slot length) - 0.125" (tool diameter) = 0.95"

Width: I know how wide the slot should be and how wide the tool is, but I need to know how much to move the tool "off center" to cut the right amount of material off each side. Again... machine travel is from the center of the tool.

0.160" (Slot width) - 0.002" (how much I want to leave on each side so I can file it in) = 0.158"
then 0.158" (finished slot width) - 0.125" (tool diameter) = 0.033" (extra material total)
but we want to take it off each side to make sure the slot is centered, so;
0.033/ 2 = 0.0165" (amount of material to take of on each side of the 1/8" slot)

So, you find the center line for your block. There are a bunch of ways of doing this, but I use and edge finder most of the time

Once it is on center I line up the outside edge of the tool with the outside edge of my slot and set the machine to Y-axis to zero.

Milling a slot like this with a small diameter tool took about 0.03" of material off each pass. I usually leave 0.005" once each end of the slot is cut while I am roughing it out, and then go to the full length after I have cut all the way through the piece. This makes the sides and ends of the slot smoother and less likely to have the tool chatter or taper the slot.

Once you know what you need to do, you just have to make the passes and keep the tool cool and lubricated while it runs.

Another change to this guard is that I am taking Nick wheeler's advice and cutting a slight relief in the back of the guard to allow for better fitment. I am interested to see how it works!

 

[Lorien]

I didnt like how the second guard fit and so I am touching up the geometry of the tang a bit and hopefully the 3rd time's the charm, should have an update for you later. I have had zero time to work on it since the last email. I got a big job in at work and I have been working overtime and weekends.

I got about 2 hours to work on the knife after putting in 12 at work. I spent the entire time fitting the guard. The other two fit fine... but I wanted it to fit GREAT so... that takes time. At the end of the night, I got it:thumbup:. It needs some final tweaking to get it perfect but it is almost there.

There was sharpie on the blade so there is a slight exaggeration of the "seam" and this is only the first fitting up to the shoulders.

Now that the guard is fit and everything is on I will drill the locating pins in the handle spacers and guard before doing the rough shaping. The blade will get finished, and then after the guard gets bent it will all go back together for the finish shaping. After that it is just anodizing and final polishing.

 

[Bigfattyt]

Looking great so far!

 

[RogerP]

Coming together very nicely.

Roger

 

[Allen Newberry]

Thanks for taking the time to put all this together!

 

[Lorien]

I would have posted last night, but I'm having a hard time reconciling some of the photos with some of the text. Stay tuned later in the day...

 

[Lorien]

I am trying to figure out the cross-section of the handle where it intersects with the spacers and gaurd. I want it to be slightly smaller than the width of the guard and fit with the curves of the s-guard, so I look at my handle drawing and extrapolate lines for the slot and the height of the finished handle.

Then I square the guard with the lines and trace the width of the guard on top of the lines.

To get the width of the slot I line up the slot with the lines I traced for the outside of the guard and then trace along the outside of the guard that is technically "inside" the drawn guard width.

I do this for both sides, and since the offset of the pen tip is the same it should create the exact width of the slot in precisely the middle of the drawn guard width.

Now, because I extrapolated the height of the handle as well as the location, (vertically) of the slot, I should have the slot drawn in the correct position on my template that has the maximum dimensions of the handle cross-section.

In order to get the profile symmetrical I can either fold my template in half vertically, (lining up the edges) if I only want it to be symmetrical vertically, or if I want it completely symmetrical I fold it both ways.

Then I simply cut it to the desired shape. I may have to unfold it, check, refold and modify the cut if I am not happy with the shape.

Now I have a completely true, square and symmetrical profile that I can use for roughing out the handle profile onto the guard or the handle.

Now that I have everything cut out and fitting, I am going to glue the parts together and drill the dowel pin holes in the spacers and guard, then in the handle. Once everything lines up I can do the profiling on the handle. I am going to polish the blade first though.

 

[Lorien]

sorry I'm having a bit of a glitch getting the photos oriented properly. Should be resolved soon

 

[NickWheeler]

Hey Chris- Looking good!

In your photo of your relief cut for the guard, it looks like you left about half the thickness of the guard at your desired width, and cut the relief quite a bit oversize (there's a pretty hefty "shelf" down around the middle of the guard slot).

When I do this, I mill it so that there is only about 0.025 - 0.030" thick area to fit up, and the relief cut only needs to be about 0.010" - 0.015" over the thickness of the blade. I think you'd be much happier with how that works on fit-up.

 

[Knifemaker87]

Hey Chris- Looking good!

In your photo of your relief cut for the guard, it looks like you left about half the thickness of the guard at your desired width, and cut the relief quite a bit oversize (there's a pretty hefty "shelf" down around the middle of the guard slot).

When I do this, I mill it so that there is only about 0.025 - 0.030" thick area to fit up, and the relief cut only needs to be about 0.010" - 0.015" over the thickness of the blade. I think you'd be much happier with how that works on fit-up.

Thanks for the note. i didnt mention it in the text.. but that is exactly what i did with my 3rd version. i just didnt get pictures of it. It worked much better. the thing that made this guard extra tricky was that i didnt have the chance to surface grind it.. so i had to do it all by hand checking with mics and so forth. they frown on me bring knives to work... i got kicked off center for a week because i had a couple unfinished knives (and a sword) in my truck a couple years ago... so i have to bring them in when they dont look threatening.. an i didnt get the chance with this knife.

thanks for the tip though.. it helps alot!