Dangerous question

[Focusblade]

Dont forget the development costs as well.. a lot of time goes in there... the with the shirogorov, those beautiful paterns, one slight mistake and it is scrapped lol...

 

[The cow]

I'm trying to work out in my head what it is that makes a knife worth the money that some command, both new and "used." There are three that are particularly perplexing to me: Strider, Hinderer and Shirogorov. There just isn't anything about these that make it immediately apparent why they cost so much money. I have no doubt that they are well made and use fine materials, but the same can be said for many, many other knives that cost a great deal less.

This question isn't intended to generate a comparison of the above, or a flame war of any kind. I'm only interested in what these (as examples only) knives have that less expensive knives of similar quality do not.

Its simple supply and demand. People want these knives and are willing to pay absurd amounts for them. These companies are around long enough to know what people are actually willing to pay for them. Especially their fanboys. I doubt these knives even cost $150 to make.
But they have a reputation for LEO/MIL oriented items. Personally, I find the business tactic insulting since we all know the instances of them actually buying one of these is incredibly low.

 

[Screwdriver]

Well Strider SMF's are an official issued knife, NSN-1095-01-531-5015, and many active military do carry them, but they do carry many many other brands. As for Hinderer, someone mentioned that they only sell to LEO, Military and Emergency personnel, which is false. I know a Hinderer dealer here in LA that carries there entire line and anyone with money can buy them.

Bottom line is, you are paying for the complete package. You want a Strider, you pay what it costs to get a Strider....same as with Hinderer. But basically you are paying for a name and in many times a unique design etc. As for materials and the cost of building them? Well if you took the mineral value of Steve Jobs and some homeless guy, they would be pretty equal. But many would say that Steve Jobs was worth more because of who he is and what he has done. I may disagree because of my dislike for Apple, but many people would agree.

 

[Fire_Brand]

I couldn't disagree more. Sure, marketing is a big factor but to disregard material and construction is silly.

I also buy and sell fine Bibles. What's the dif between a $30 bonded leather Bible and a $200 Allan smyth sewn goatskin Bible? Well, like your pen example...both have basic function writing and reading. The Allan Bible won't fall apart in a year or two and haS superior flexibility in your hand.

Same with most quality knives...IMHO.

I've got to agree with Rey, majority of the high end knives are priced the way they are because they are a luxury item. The issue is I think a lot of people read this as an insult and are quick to defend because they want to feel like they are paying for something of substance. The big thing here though is that exclusivity, brand name, and origin absolutely are substantial things.

For lack of a better analogy let's talk about cars because it is something I know. Ford just released a new Ford GT and it is simply stunning no doubt and it is truly a super-car. Ford is only releasing a handful of these to the public and with the MSRP of $150000 which really is a great value. However the reality will be that you likely wouldn't be able to touch one of these for under $350000 because of how strong the demand will be. So is the car worth $150000 or $350000? I would personally say that even at $350000 the car is worth it if I was in the market for a car in that price range, but just looking at MSRP I can see the car was no where near that price to produce. But it is rare, and exclusive and some pure american muscle.

A new Strider is between $400 and $500 but can that really be tied to manufacturing costs? I personally really doubt it but since I can't really prove anything about Striders internal costs I won't argue that direction, they may be extremely inefficient and truly spend that much to produce a knife. The one thing we can judge is whether or not we see $400-$500 in quality of build. Without starting this tired old argument you can't deny that a large number of people have problems with strider's especially with their locks. Just a little bit of googling will show evidence of this. For less than half of the price of a strider we can look at ZT's which are also american made, with better materials and a better fit and finish. But it isn't exclusive. That is until they make sprint runs like the 0392 which then suddenly jump in price.

The one exception to this rule I would argue are Chris Reeve's knives. I truly believe that the level of detail and fit and finish on a CRK warrants the price point so I would not lump them in. Additionally CRK's are not exclusive, if you want one they are easy to find which is a good thing in my opinion. But with Strider, Hinderer and many other mid-tech's you are paying a premium for the luxury and privilege of owning the item. The thing we can't miss is that this does have tangible value as reflected in the price. But if you are just paying for labor, materials and quality you can go much lower than that and get a better item. Like in my previous analogy the Ford GT would be the exclusive premium sports car for me, but I could also go spend 90k and get a new Corvette Z06 which would likely be just as fast, maybe faster at a fraction of the price.

 

[EyeDog]

Hey Fire_Brand...appreciate your thoughts and you and others arguing from from supply-demand and market driven and marketing strategy are probably correct.

Bottom line for me, I would rather drive my BMW than my Dodge. And...I would rather buy quality well made knives than cheap knockoffs from a large online auction site.

On the other hand a good friend, a former POW told me when he got in a new car I just bought:"A to B". This after I was bragging about how cool my new car was. I asked him what he meant. He said, "Your car is only a means for getting from point A to point B."

 

[Thomas Linton]

If you wonder you should hold one. I have only had a Strider but I think it is worth what I paid. And it shouldn't matter what anyone else thinks.

Indeed, the only opinion that counts is that of the buyer. Over the decades, the price paid for certain brands have gone up and collapsed. Objective quality is secondary to perception. Utility as a cutting tool ditto.

 

[Charlie Mike]

I charged $400 for this and someone purchased it. Do you think it was a good deal? Exclusivity... check (it's the only one in existence). Quality/exotic materials... check. Fit and finish... check (customer said it's my best work yet).

[video=youtube;fEhDm7-WQkw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEhDm7-WQkw[/video]

 

[B.F.U]

Thought Experiment.
What comes to your mind if you think of a specific knife?
SAK Cadet - Strider SnG.
Can you see the difference?
red mag

Could you explain the purpose or intended outcome of this thought experiment?

 

[jakemex]

I've got EDC knives, carry several during the week and most all at the same time. The most costly are my traditionals. Materials that feel natural and solid mechanical feel during carry and use give intrinsic value to the knife regardless of cost. My Kershaw strobe is one which is most would call cheap but equal I feel to quality of the ZT0350 that I also EDC. I too EDC what was a cheaply bonded leather Bible, sewn and rebound in supple smooth leather. What a difference quality materials and workmanship make. It was well worth the $40 dollars and shipping to get the equivalent of one of those smyth sewn Bibles. (I also own one of those) I had it rebound new, almost twenty years ago use it like my EDC knives. A one time buy. A knife of quality is too a one time buy. Price and worth is in the eye of the beholder and holder.

 

[jazub]

Where it is made, company size (production capabilities) and corporate financial backing (or lack thereof) plays a major factor. From my perspective, unwarranted "exclusivity pricing" is utilized more by production companies via the touting of "limited editions" or "sprint runs".

Consider the warranties offered by companies as well.

Strider knives are made in California and living wages are paid to Californians for knives made with top quality materials with a very generous warranty. Ditto Emerson. Similar for Benchmade, but in Oregon. CRK, Idaho. Hinderer knives, Ohio. Busse, Ohio.

Large international companies like KAI (mentioned above) have the financial backing of many divisions to offset startup costs of a niche division like ZT, but still decide to make their products and offer warranty work in the USA.

Some companies like Spyderco outsource the majority of their manufacturing to low wage Asian countries but have similar pricing to some of those mentioned above. They can offset/lower certain product pricing with those gains. Not sure what kind of warranty they offer.

Some companies like Cold Steel outsource their manufacturing to low wage Asian countries and offer lower pricing and add solid USA based warranty.

Buck knives are USA made, materials used are generally more humble but they are basically warrantied forever.

Where/how things are made and warrantied plays a very large roll in how things can be priced. The pricing is then left up to the company and our interpretation of "worth."

 

[Charlie Mike]

My work is warranty covered until I can no longer stand at a grinder.

 

[The cow]

Lots of knives cost more for the design - if you could buy a knife with a very similar design to a Strider, with similar materials, for less cost, you would....but you can't. If you want a Strider, you have to pay Strider prices. Same for Hinderer and Emerson.

...or you get the ZT 0560 which is a superior flipper to Hinderers
...or a ZT 0620 which is simply a better knife than a Emerson
...or a MT DOC if you want that flipper or a cheaper Strider

They're not worth it if you start comparing it what else is out there. However, if you want the "real deal" you have to pay the price

 

[DallasSTB]

I may be wrong, but I think Shirogorov knives used to be cheaper, but the prices rose when they became more popular in the U.S......

I'm a little late to the party but you're correct in the first part, but not the second - partially. They became more expensive when True North Knives (not a knock on Neil - he's a friend) snapped up the North American Exclusive rights to their knives. He gets a cut now and the prices jumped outside of aftermarket sales like you see on some of the exchanges here. Before that they were in the $650 range. Granted, that was before they added the bearing pivot systems and exotic steels, so prices rose as choices expanded understandably.

 

[Screwdriver]

...or you get the ZT 0560 which is a superior flipper to Hinderers
...or a ZT 0620 which is simply a better knife than a Emerson
...or a MT DOC if you want that flipper or a cheaper Strider

They're not worth it if you start comparing it what else is out there. However, if you want the "real deal" you have to pay the price

I have held the DOC.....and while it is a Strider collaboration....feels far cheaper then my Strider.

 

[Boris74]

Hey Fire_Brand...appreciate your thoughts and you and others arguing from from supply-demand and market driven and marketing strategy are probably correct.

Bottom line for me, I would rather drive my BMW than my Dodge. And...I would rather buy quality well made knives than cheap knockoffs from a large online auction site.

On the other hand a good friend, a former POW told me when he got in a new car I just bought:"A to B". This after I was bragging about how cool my new car was. I asked him what he meant. He said, "Your car is only a means for getting from point A to point B."

You are right on every point right there. I will use pickup trucks as an example. My brother has a rather large truck, even a half ton is too small. He literally only hauls milk and bread, maybe a frozen pizza here and there. It's 4x4 but it never leaves the pavement. I have a beat up old Ranger with a 3.0 Vulcan. Just yesterday I burned half a tank of gas hauling stones, paver blocks around the farm then a bunch of loads of wood out to our fire pit back by the river. Just a lowly 4x2 mini truck. Tires never touched pavement.

So which truck is better? One can do (more) work and the other actually does work. The one doing actual work costs a fraction of the price of the super truck.

Price matters to some for one reason only, and doing work is not it.

 

[John_0917]

Its simple supply and demand. People want these knives and are willing to pay absurd amounts for them. These companies are around long enough to know what people are actually willing to pay for them. Especially their fanboys. I doubt these knives even cost $150 to make.
But they have a reputation for LEO/MIL oriented items. Personally, I find the business tactic insulting since we all know the instances of them actually buying one of these is incredibly low.

I agree, while some Mil/first responders do carry them, the number is probably very small, much smaller than Hinderer etc. would like to have you believe. Let's be realistic, even at the Mil/FR prices, they are still very expensive when taken in comparison to the typical wages earned by those in such professions.

My brother is an 1811 with a well known 3 letter agency in a fairly high cost major city, makes over $100K a year with LEAP (mandatory overtime) and would never spend $350 for a knife. I gave him an Atlantic Salt as a gift when he made GS-13, it' perfect for him since he does have "tactical" (doing raids) responsibilities, he keeps it in his plate carrier to use as a 'cut their clothes off' knife in the event of a shooting. I can't speak for him directly obviously, but if he was going to spend Hinderer/Strider kind of money on anything for work, it is not going to be on a knife...more like a trigger or sights upgrade or something like that.

Hell, you can almost buy a Glock pistol under their LE/FR discount program for what a Hinderer costs at their discount price...I think it's fair to say that most LEOs would much rather have another pistol over another knife for the same money.

 

[Bludgeon]

My work is warranty covered until I can no longer stand at a grinder.

That would be called Limited Warranty...

 

[Charr]

I have to say that a knife will sell for what the community as a whole will generally allow it to, and that is both the advantage and the disadvantage of the massive community that is supported by this outlet as well as many others.

I have owned over a dozen Shirogorovs now, and I have loved every single one of them. Now, I will say that I only STILL own 2...though they are the ones I have had to spend the most time getting. I have a 95T M390 and a 95CF inlay S90V (though that one will be getting here Friday), and I have owned just about all of Shirogorov's models at one time or another to see what really suits me.
Some people do worry about the warranty thing, and it does rarely worry me, but I have used my 95T solidly for a year and have never had even the slightest hint of an issue with the knife, so I am pretty confident I don't have to worry about "warranty" work any time soon with these tanks of knives.
Good tip from me; buy knives that are built to over-achieve, not a knife that is over-built.

Obviously the price is worth it to me, but other people will of course have different opinions. A lot of the time, that opinion is based on what we are able/willing to spend on a knife. When I could only afford a Buck knife a long time ago, I tough buying a Benchmade was absurd, and I was not as aware of the value in them as I am now. Once I got the ability to purchase what I wanted, I also began to understand the difference in values both for myself as well as in general.

Precisie machining, exact tolerances, crative design, thoughtful materials, and an overall exquisite product all play a huge role in price, and the lack or deficiency of some of those aspects will change the perceived value. In addition to the material difference, the marketing, perceived differences, and the common trends of the times will all play very big rolse as well.
What we allow to drive out demand is our own choice, but since we tend ot form groups based on opinion, you will often find that a product that has redeeming qualities will be in high demand at some level or another depending on how many people there are who agree on the good points of the product.
For example, I don't particularly like Emerson knives. I undertsand the thought that goes into designs, and the good points of each knife, but those points don't really speak to me, nor are they the things that I usually pick a knife as the basis. Becuase of that, I don't really see as much value in Emerson knives as I do my Shirogorovs, even though I could buy 4-5 Emerson knives for the cost of one of my Shirogorovs. The key is that, even though I do not really like Emerson knives, they have a very large following, which is going to play into their price, marketing, and just about everything else about them as well.
The same can easily be said of CRK, Strider, and Hinderer, all 3 of which I am a fan for the record, but for very different reasons from one to another. It's a pretty good bet that if a brand is as big as CRK, Hinderer, Strider, ZT, Spyderco, Benchmade, Kershaw, Shirogorov, or even a custom maker that is really popular, then there is a reason they are there, and a reason that many people all think it is worth the money...probably a lot of reasons.

SO, you have to decide for yourself, and your income, tastes, and your ability to actually purchase one of these knives (especially in the case of Shirogorov) will play a very big role in what you decide is worth it or not.
Do your reseach, listen to as many opinions as possible, but do not let anyone tell you what is worth the money or not worth the money like their word is gospel. What is worth or not worth the money is ultimately for YOU to decide.

 

[CelticCross74]

they cost that much because of the materials for one and secondly you are paying for some of the most skilled labor in the industry THEN the name. That being said the guy who owns my local knife shop has $100,000 in custom Hinderers and Striders. All the flipper Hinderers SUCK non of them actually flip without a lot of wrist. The custom Striders are much better and have amazing ergos. Love being able to handle $4,000 custom knives when I go to my knife shop its pretty cool. Whats the best Hinderer?...ZT 0550. Have yet to handle a Shirogorov they seem to be very upscale Benchmades since most use an Axis Lock

 

[The cow]

I have held the DOC.....and while it is a Strider collaboration....feels far cheaper then my Strider.

I guess I'll disagree with you on that. Neither one "feels" cheap. However, Striders feel overpriced when you compare them
I think they're on par with each other. Really comes down to if you're a G10/Ti, flipper, or magical fairy steel kinda person. Most I'd pay for either is $300