Dark Ops Petition/Contact...

Gollnick said:
Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Actually, I think I didn't even resort to ad hominem attacks at all. I just think that something's wrong with people who condone IP theft and mall ninja ads that potentially hurt the community.

Frank Miller used to be a "very well-respected person here on this forum", too.
 
Again you miss my point. Whether the attacks are on Dark Ops or anyone else, it's the piling on that pisses me off. I didn't make any personal attacks nor did I single anyone out. If it hurt you, then obviously some introspection is order.

If Frank hasn't come on here to answer, then that's his prerogative. Ya know, the whole world doesn't live on the internet, nor does everyone choose to.

What I'm saying is, give the man a chance, period. If I was on the receiving end of this, I certinly wouldn't respond. If you want to open up a dialogue to get him to change his thinking, you need to try a different way than backing him into a corner.

C'mon -- we're better than this crap.

~Brian.

P.S. Chuck, thank you, for keeping it civil.
 
Brian,
do you think that these knives look nothing like ERs?

Brian Jones said:
If Frank hasn't come on here to answer, then that's his prerogative. Ya know, the whole world doesn't live on the internet, nor does everyone choose to.
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Read this thread again. He (or another Dork Ops representative) browsed this thread a couple of days ago and didn't bother to reply.

Brian Jones said:
What I'm saying is, give the man a chance, period. If I was on the receiving end of this, I certinly wouldn't respond. If you want to open up a dialogue to get him to change his thinking, you need to try a different way than backing him into a corner.
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Read this thread again. Dozens of DOK thread were started throughout the last six months or so. He never replied.

Brian Jones said:
I didn't make any personal attacks nor did I single anyone out. If it hurt you, then obviously some introspection is order.
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No, you didn't single anyone out - you just painted everyone criticizing DOK in this thread with a broad brush. And I doubt that any of your accusations accurately describe anyone who posted here - they definitely don't describe me. So no, "some introspection" is not in order.
 
Mr. Miller is well-aware of this thread and the others here. He and I have discussed it briefly about two weeks ago. If he was going to make some reply, I think he would have done so by now.
 
Can I ask a simple question? Who the hell is Paul Basal, and why has he associated himself with DO? Or is it the other way around, DO sucking him into a pathetic ad campaign on the basis of his questionable SEAL service?

And furthermore, who exactly thought up the "controlled blood spray during covert deanimation" pitch? Whoever it was should have holy hell rained down upon them, whether it was Frank, Paul, whomever???????????????????
 
Oh, Storm, please...be Quiet. I'm sure your real-life reputation is intact, since you post under a pseudonym. Don't worry, your friends still love you. I'm sure you are very bold in person. :p You've been a member here in good standing with an excellent reputation for a very long time.

Ok, a few thoughts:

I think the marketing for Dark Ops is over the top. It's marketing. It's not how I would do it, but time will tell if it works or doesn't work for Frank. Time will also tell whether it hurts the industry, has no effect, or helps it.

I also think Pyramont (the marketing firm) is repeating themselves: Blackhawk was original, but then Otis, and now DO -- they all look the same. Pyramont is doing an excellent job of branding Pyramont. I almost feel like they are ripping off Otis and DO (and subsequently Blackhawk), because they all look so similar. One would think they are three subsidiaries of the same firm, based on the branding style. Personally, I think it dilutes the identity of each Pyramont client. Then again, maybe it'll work really well for all three. Time again will tell.

We've seen other companies do the "way over" marketing approach, and it didn't hurt anyone nor did it hurt the industry in any way, and they changed their marketing to be less violent in their descriptions. Why? They found it more effective to be less over the edge. Those companies enjoy excellent overall reputations today. No, I'm not going to get into naming these companies. If Frank's marketing doesn't work to gain and/or increase sales, I'm sure he'll adjust. If his marketing DOES work, I'm sure he won't adjust. Nobody goes into business to lose money -- it's about making a profit. A company's efforts will succeed or fail based on its ability to sell, period. If this marketing is ineffective, Frank will go out of business. It'll take care of itself one way or the other, without the need for petitions or anything else.

--Let's do some more speculation (and this is pure speculation), this time in Frank's favor:

1. Perhaps Frank had a large hand in ER's designs, both originally and through the extensive customer feedback he got from USA customers.

2. Perhaps Frank owns part of those designs and has a legitimate right, either through ownership, part ownership, or license, to use or alter them. Even if the right was aquired through adversarial negotiations, it doesn't mean Frank is the bad guy, nor does it mean ER are bad guys. In business, sometimes partnerships don't work out. It means disagreements occured, and both sides can be legitmate in their claims. So, it's necessary to negotiate a compromise.

3. Perhaps Frank sunk a large chunk of money into ER only to have the rug yanked out from under him.

You gotta admit that these are just as plausible as any other possibilities. Often, when one knife looks similar to another, we scream "rip-off" without checking or knowing whether an agreement was reached between the parties behind the scenes. This is all pure speculation, whether in Frank's favor or not in his favor. Still pure conjecture. A lot of the info that people are basing accusations on are second or thirdhand info.

We'll never really know will we? Since both ER and DO are privately held companies.

Yes, Quiet Storm, they do look very similar to ER knives in many ways. But maybe Frank has the right to do so. He is the one who singlehandedly put ER on the map here in the US wouldn't you all agree? Their momentum in the US stopped cold when they and Frank separated. Personally, I think ER made a mistake there, if purely from a profit and loss standpoint. They could have saved a great deal of money in costs-of-sales-and-marketing by going through one very effective channel. Now, they will have to try to aquire and service multiple channels here in the US, and that costs a lot more money.

I remember a few years ago, one company made a folder that had a handle design almost identical to another company's folder, and everyone piled on and screamed "rip-off!" What nobody knew or bothered to find out was that the owners of both companies were good friends and the one gave free permission to the other (who asked before making the folder) to go ahead. But that didn't stop the rumors from flying.

~B.
 
Well guys i have been on the phone talking to the cops that are buying the knives from DOK. They ensure me that they will have the knives as soon as they are availible. After talking to them about some of the advertising i can kinda see where this is all coming from. Although i do see that it is a little extreme on the flip side i can see why it is unfolding like it is.
The knives are suppose to be TACTICAl knives. Thats why they are so extreme. The knives are similiat to extreme ops yes. On the positve side maybe they will be better or improved knives. It makes me think about the buck 110. It is the number one copied knife of all time. It is hard to beat the original but some try and some try to just make a quick dollar. The cops swear to me that Frank isn't doing that. THe cops haven't ever lied to me and they are great friends with Frank. I am going to try and believe that Frank wouldn't rip off his close friends. I am also trying to believe that if DOK is an improved version of ER then the knives will be a great tactical knife. I have only seen 2 ER knives in my life and they are the size of tanks and i think they could take on a tank and survive just fine.

I will give Frank credit for letting the officers use his extreme ratio knives for there class. It shows he is trying to build a customer base. Now whether the knives were lost in the mail or whether they are having problems with the manufactoring aspect i do not know. What ever it is i hope they straighten it out soon. We all need to see one of the knives in person to fully evaluate the quality but the only people actually going to be using it is the people it is suppose to be made for. Law enforcement and military. So after the knifes are given to the officers and they use them for 6 months or a year then we will be able to make assumptions on how good they are.

Maybe they will be a bad product that doesn't work and maybe they will be one of the most affective police tools out there. We just have to wait and see after several months of extreme abuse. Like all of you i would have did the entire advertising different but who am i. just some kid that loves knives. Sure i wouldn't have put 911 on that knives. I believe what case knife company did was great. they came out with a 911 memorial knife and didn't really advertise it. And they are still selling strong with out people knowing what they are buying. But on the flip side once again maybe they are wanting the law enforcement and military areas to know that they are behind them. Not sure and at this point i am going to stop thinking about it.

I wouldn't hink an american would try and capitalize on a tradgedy. And from what i have been hearing from the officers Frank wouldn't do that. I hope they are right. So from now on I am going to try and make my own opinions on the situations. I admit i kind of jumped on the bandwagon a little without making my own ideas. Everything you all said would happen did happen BUT since the officers are not mad or worried then there is no reason for me to be upset. Until they are hurt if they ever will be i am going to back there decision in whatever choice they decide to carry. After all they are my mentors in the law ewnforcement area and they have been out there in the line of duty.

Does that mean i am going to be carrying a DOK ???? Not sure. I might if they are as good as expected by the officers. If not there are plenty of other brands out there. A knife is as good as YOU want it to be and the best knife for the job is the one you have in your hand at the time you need it. Just like the best gun is the one you have in your hands at the time you pull the trigger.

Now i did not meant to put anyone down with any of my post that i have posted. The ones that oppose frank you have the right to do so. THose of you that like his work you have the right to do so also. I am not saying i for him but i do hope it works out for him for the officers sake as well as his.

Now we all have our on beliefs but for now on i am going to keep quiet on
this whole subject.
later jason
 
Jason, good post, well balanced presentation. Next time, though, could you please paragraph? It is not easy following a line through a black block of type. Separate out each idea with a double Enter.
 
If a police officer pulls you over because he suspects you're driving without a license, all you need do is show your license and the officer will appologize and send you on your way. The revelation of the facts quickly answers all questions and the matter is quickly dismissed.

If Mr. Miller and DOK have some legal right to the designs, shared copyright, license, whatever, then that fact should be revealed and the entire issue of intellectual property theft will be quickly and easily put to bed.

If Mr. Miller was employed by ER then, depending on the terms of that employment relationship, his work-product for ER probably belongs to ER. If his relationship with ER terminates, he can not (again, subject to the terms of that relationship) take his work-product for ER, which is ER's property, with him to a new employeer or to a new business that he himself starts. Subject to the terms of his relationship with ER, that is true legally, but also morally and ethically.

If he has any legal right to the designs, then he should present that fact and all accusations will be quickly withdrawn.
 
The burden of proof lies with the accuser, not the accused. Miller need not do anything here, nor should he given the general lack of maturity and respect shown in this and other threads.

Who the heck do y'all think you are, demanding that he answer anonymous allegations?
 
sendec, we are members of a knife buying community, who have every right to express our opinions about any knife related matters on this knife oriented forum.

Frank Miller is under no obligation to explain hiimself to us, just as we are under no obligation to believe in the undemonstrated integrity of his current business.
 
There have been some accusations made concerning the disappearance of some ER knives that were supposidly in Mr. Miller's hands. I haven't heard the entire case, of course, and so don't want to be seen as making any accusations myself. I'm certain that a police department would not want to be in receipt of stolen goods, so I will assume that the department which is "borrowing" Mr. Miller's ER knives has investigated that issue.

But intellectual property is property too, legally so. Until the issue of Mr. Miller's legal right to the designs is resolved, I would hope that no law-enforcement agency would purchase this potentially-stolen property.
 
I say quit talking about Dark Ops period, ya know the old adage "Even bad press is good press". The more publicity the better, I say give em the old media blackout. :cool:
 
Gollnick,

You're right, if it was an employer-employee agreement. I think it's pretty obvious that Frank was not an employee of ER, but the importer for their knives. In other words, he was in business for himself, with an association with ER. I would not be surprised if he bought every piece he got wholesale and then resold them. That's my guess, because that's how it usually is set up in this industry. If so, then he had a lot of risk, or "skin in the game." Therefore, the "employee" rules would not apply. They more likely would have have some sort of ownership-of-design agreement in place, however it may have been set up.

Also, if some ER knives disappeared that were in Frank's hands, he probably already had purchased them so they would be his to keep or lose, right? If he had hadn't paid for them yet on net terms, then I am sure he did in fact pay for them when the monies were due.

If he has any legal right to the designs, then he should present that fact and all accusations will be quickly withdrawn.
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I'm sure you know -- because you of all people here have a solid sense of right from wrong -- that doing things that way, my friend, is called extortion. I, personally, would never negotiate with terrorists. :p
 
Brian Jones said:
I'm sure you know -- because you of all people here have a solid sense of right from wrong -- that doing things that way, my friend, is called extortion. I, personally, would never negotiate with terrorists. :p
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I know that you are just trying to lighten the situation and not speaking to me but this is just plain... wrong. Extortion? Terrorists? I don't think so.

"EXTORTION - The use, or the express or implicit threat of the use, of violence or other criminal means to cause harm to person, reputation, or property as a means to obtain property from someone else with his consent. USC 18

The Hobbs Act defines "extortion" as "the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right." 18 U.S.C. S 1951(b)(2)."
law definitions

It would be extortion if Mr. Miller took his legally gotten property from Extrema Ratio and offered to not steal the designs in exchange for some set amount of money or other personal gain. But thats not what he is doing. In this case, it appears in my opinion , that all he is guilty of is theft of intellectual property.

All gollnick has offered is to make a public retraction of opinion if Frank Miller comes to this site and explains all of these pesky lil things that keep popping up to us, a not so negligible percentage of his possible customer base.

You are right about one thing though, he doesn't have to respond. If that only furthers the beliefs and opinions of those of us here regarding his perpetually soon-to-be available products, then who is to blame? It is not anyone responding on this thread and it is certainly not any terrorists.
 
Ok, people are getting butthurt at my intent to lighten the situation.

We'll retract the extortion and just go with the Salem Witch Hunt metaphor...
it's more accurate.

Out here, nothing else to add to this already too long thread.
 
James used to call these situations "trial by internet" and they always result in a "mistrial".

Other than the advertising, which I personally find repulsive and harmfull to the knife community, everything else is second or third hand at best.
 
Ok, one last thing:

Firsthand Knowledge:

--My experiences personally with Frank (excellent)

--my handling of the knives at the show (seem to be of excellent quality)

--Frank's past customer service with ER (excellent)

--Frank's LE friends who were lent ER knives until their DO knives come in (they swear by him, and trust him -- rating: excellent)

--evidence of DO marketing campaign (individual choice)

Secondhand/thirdhand info/Rumor:

--most everything else on this thread

I'd say the more concrete evidence weighs in Frank's favor.
 
You can choose to disregard my first hand evidence if you want, just as I will disregard any evidence from "friends" of Frank. :p
 
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