DARK OPS Pics. PLEASE!!!!!

[Trace Rinaldi]

Man this is some of the funniest $hit I have ever seen... To be honest I cant believe I was on the can long enough to read the whole ad and see things like "Strategically placed blood grooves to control blood spray" AND Covert deanimation activities" :barf: This MUST be some sort of HUGE joke, cause if this is where we are going in the knife industry its over.
I dont know anything about the poeple involved, but this is the lamest stuff I have ever seen.. And I have seen much of the lame...

Edited for pewer spailing

 

[Jerry Busse]

People don't lose their rights overnight. It happens incrementally. Let's keep rewarding these advertisers for these ads. It only takes a single strand to unwind the whole damn spool.

jsmatos,

Excellent post!

We, as an industry, need to accept the reality of what can befall us as a result of such irresponsible advertising. In the long run, every knifemaker and manufacturer will have to pay for the checks that others in our industry are writing.

Jerry Busse

 

[Daniel Moore]

NeedleRemorse: "That's a shameless ripoff...no way anyone can defend it."

I just did, its not a rip off, see above, it's an upgraded version based on customers wants and recommendations to Frank while with ER [ ER would never listen to customers or Franks recommendations while he was at the uSA helm, hence he saw the oportunity to produce something poeple generally took as very good and with their input, attempted to make it better ].

Now if you don't like it, for any reason, don't buy one. But look past those prejudices for a minute and maybe you guys could have seen the differences without having to have them pointed out by another.

You saw what you wanted to see based on your preconceived notion of the DOK Strato as a knockoff/ripoff of the ER MPC, no more or less.

Be objective in your critiques grasshoppers

Mines already on order and should arrive by the end of July. Can't wait to see and handle the upgrades as I was always of the impression the ER MPC was one of the toughest folders I have ever handled, yet needed some changes. Now those changes are available to me, and I for one am grateful that they are being made available.

Brownie, you're getting ridiculous. You listed 5 changes. I can't help but find it terribly ironic that you're telling US to look subjectively, when all you're doing is going over the knife with a fine-toothed comb for changes so that you can defend someone for whatever reasons you may have.

All that Dark Ops did was take the designs, tweak them slightly-for improvement or just to make their blatant thievery less obvious- and market their products. You can't justify it by saying that these are improvements on an old product, because the company that MADE the knife should be the one improving their product if they see fit. Let's say I make knives. You buy my knives, but can think of 5 small things you'd like changed. I love the design I have, and do not want to, for whatever reason, make these small changes. A new company starts, however, spews some wannabe-soldier crap, and markets MY product with 5 or so changes. How fair is it to capitalize on another's design?

Here are some similarities that make it look like an ER:
1) Basic handle shape
2) The blade geometry is the same (except for the blade hump )
3) Same upper-handle well
4) Black anodized blade, black handles
5) Same lanyard hole
6) The thumb stud in same postion
7) They both have the same blade scallop (Whatever they call it)
8) Same glass breaker (even if they made it pointier)
9) Half-serrated edge with the same serration design
10) Same lock-lever in the same spot

These small things may seem like nothing alone , but they all come together. So, slapping on some skateboarding tape, grinding off the blade hump, adding some grip serrations, making the glass-breaker pointier, and making a second well is just not enough for anyone to claim originality in any form, and if anyone is going to make a few slight improvements on a knife design, it's the maker's responsibilty, not a disgruntled employee's responsibility to start a new company and make a few changes. Sorry Brownie, but if you need glasses to see the differences, I stand by my assertions. Don't assume that everyone going against you is following a mob-mentality. I came into this thread with no liking for Extreme Ratio (therefor no reason to defend it, and I have no prejudices unless ethics counts as such), I left with no liking for Extreme Ratio, but now I have a newfound lack of respect for Dark Ops. I will not purchase these knives, and I hope that nobody else will who is informed enough to realize how crooked this is. It would send a good message that you cannot steal designs so closely and make profit in the knife community. It would also send the message that we do not condone slick and demographic targeting. I am also sickened that he cites Al-Queda, using everyone's anti-terrorism mindset as a marketing ploy.

And how would you feel if I took the Brownie Pop tutorial that you sent me, made slight improvements, and publicly posted the method, claiming it as my own? The analogy is not perfect (partly because nobody who hasn't requested your design knows it, you're protective over it understandably), but I think you can get the idea.

 

[brownie0486]

NeedleRemorse:

Someone [ actually a few posters ] mentioned no changes, I listed them, no more or less. Not defending DOK actions per se, just stating the obvious, there are changes/upgrades to the ER design.

Your problem is with Frank and DOK, not I. I'm not connected with them [ Frank or DOK ] in anyway, but I will take delivery of one of their products, the strato, as I wanted the upgrades over the ER's and now have the chance to get one with many of the changes I was looking for [ and some I wasn't looking for ].

His business practices, advertising, decisions etc. are his business. I do feel the ads were over the top like many and have stated so. Again, thats his business and not mine. Does it hurt the industry as a whole? I don't know to be quite frank. Is it over the top? I think so. Are the knives going to be any good? I don't know, but I'm taking delivery of one to find out.

Each makes their own choices as buyers and sellers. You can't please all the poeple all the time, fact of life. I don't think Frank expected to please everyone to begin with, does any maker/mfger in reality think they can?

Brownie

 

[Daniel Moore]

Hey Brownie,

It seems that you're switching from defender to messenger. I personally do not believe that you're being as objective as you think you're being. I was replying to your persistent defending of something that I felt was a rip-off, and when I said that it was a ripoff, you seemed to have categorized myself and others as being with a mob-mentality and implied prejudice on my part. I listed the striking similarities that led me to my conclusions, stated my standpoint, and refuted your ideas that it's ok because he is "improving".

I just did, its not a rip off, see above, it's an upgraded version based on customers wants and recommendations to Frank while with ER [ ER would never listen to customers or Franks recommendations while he was at the uSA helm, hence he saw the oportunity to produce something poeple generally took as very good and with their input, attempted to make it better ].

You're saying it's not a rip-off, but the only evidence you've provided is 5 changes. The "improving" idea does not hold up because it's a different company. He stole the design and made miniscule changes, so the question is: Do those changes qualify it as his own knife? I say no.

 

[biogon]

Stupid question...

Has anyone confirmed from both ER and DOK that the DOK designs are NOT "under license" or "by permission" or even "by tacit permission by reason of lack of protest" from ER?

I read this thread (and others) and wasn't able to find a solid confirmation that there's no extant agreement between the two parties. Although I suppose if it was "under the table" neither party would 'fess up to it...

Thanks, and I apologize if it's been covered ad nauseum already.

-j

PS: I'm not supporting DOK -- anyone who designs a 7" geometric tanto combat FB with a bandbreaker and calls it the "Raven" is a thumbs-down in my book... even if Frank didn't know, it's in poor taste to not change it once he was made aware of the situation. I don't care if it's defensible, it's just plain inconsiderate.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

"by tacit permission by reason of lack of protest" from ER?

Until DarkOps actually puts something up for sale, ER would be protesting a fog of speculation, pictures on the internet, nothing actionable yet. They aren't legally obliged or well advised to protest being ripped off, especially if they feel the effort to do so is failing.

 

[atlasfields]

Stupid question...

Has anyone confirmed from both ER and DOK that the DOK designs are NOT "under license" or "by permission" or even "by tacit permission by reason of lack of protest" from ER?

I read this thread (and others) and wasn't able to find a solid confirmation that there's no extant agreement between the two parties. Although I suppose if it was "under the table" neither party would 'fess up to it...

Thanks, and I apologize if it's been covered ad nauseum already.

-j

PS: I'm not supporting DOK -- anyone who designs a 7" geometric tanto combat FB with a bandbreaker and calls it the "Raven" is a thumbs-down in my book... even if Frank didn't know, it's in poor taste to not change it once he was made aware of the situation. I don't care if it's defensible, it's just plain inconsiderate.

I've been talking via email with Maurizio Castrati from ER knives. There is NO agreement between ER and Dark Ops. ER is well aware of what's going on and I think their watching this very closely. Stay tuned.

 

[thombrogan]

It upsets me that Dark Ops' knives look so much like ER's knives and that they appear to be using ER's Cross-bolt lock without permission. Those sort of actions cheese me off to no end. It particularly irritates me that an American company would gleefully ignore intellectual property rights.

As for the over-the-top copy hurting knifeknuts - I don't buy it. It's like when people claim that the actions of one person acting in an adult movie degrade all people from that gender. Bad argument.

 

[biogon]

*nod*

Thanks for the info, guys. Very interesting.

Esav,
Never thought of it like that either.... good point.

-jon

 

[Daniel Moore]

As for the over-the-top copy hurting knifeknuts - I don't buy it. It's like when people claim that the actions of one person acting in an adult movie degrade all people from that gender. Bad argument.

Bad analogy. Knifeknuts are already under the scope, we're considered strange for having a knife hobby. The general perceoption is that knife people are all for violence and are dangerous. Most of us are utility knife users, and that's how responsible dealers sell them. That helps to maintain a true image. When DarkOPS come around and stirs up contraversy like this, with talk of the knives being made just for violence, it only serves to reinforce the public image of knifeknuts as being blood-thirsty. People will get the idea that knife designs like locks and grips are all meant for fighting, when in reality they are not.

 

[Trace Rinaldi]

Not that it matters much, but the first time I saw a "Dark Ops" knife I would have bet money it was made by Extreme Ratio or whatever.. That being said I think the designs of both companies pretty much BLOW. But thats just me.

Only problem I have is the advertising.. Could you IMAGINE if someone ever used one of those knives to kill someone or numerous people? Listen, Can you hear some Media blow hole, or politician beating his chest about a NEW menace to society while holding that ad up? Well I can, and its bad for the industry pure and simple..
These guys will be GONE in a blink, and the rest of us will have to live with it. We DO NOT want this brand of BS infecting the knife world, NO good can come of this...

Edited once again for $hit spelling

Take Care
Trace Rinaldi
www.thrblades.com

 

[thombrogan]

The general perception is that knife people are all for violence and are dangerous.

Geez. And with most of us buying tac knives; a large number of us becoming knifeknuts after studying FMA and IMA; and a larger number of us being vehement supporters of the second amendment of the U.S. Constition (except for Dr. Sharp), do you think that maybe those fears are only 90% irrational?

I don't believe my analogy is incorrect and I don't believe that Dark Ops' ads will really tip the scales in either directon. They advertize in knifemags, not "Good Housekeeping".

Until criminals stop using knives and until we become more low-key and less defensive about our legal ownership of knives, we'll have the stigma. Obviously, we can only influence one portion of that equation.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

knife people are all for violence and are dangerous.

most of us buying tac knives; a large number of us becoming knifeknuts after studying FMA and IMA; and a larger number of us being vehement supporters of the second amendment

maybe those fears are only 90% irrational?

Thom, those fears are 99% irrational. There's a big difference between studying and arming yourself for self-defense or even dressing up as a mall ninja, and engaging in socially reprehensible behavior.

How many concealed-carry holders are law-breakers of any kind? (Hint: it's a self-terminating status.) How many tactical-knife enthusiasts get picked up and headlined for flashing publically proscribed weapons?

I don't like the tone of the DarlOps ads because I feel they insult my own understanding of what knives are for and how they can be used. I don't like that they can be twisted by outsiders -- but frankly, those outsiders will shriek at the sight of a SAK.

 

[brownie0486]

Masters of Defense knives;

Tactical knives magazine;

http://www.griffithknives.com/;

http://cops911.com/tacticalknives.asp;

From Bucks website: "Buck's rugged Tactical knives are engineered for trained professionals in military; law enforcement; fire, search & rescue, first response, and survival, as well as other demanding situations where "failure is not an option."

From knifeart.com: http://knifeart.com/tacfol.html

http://www.specialforces.com/special_forces_combat_tactical_knives.html

http://www.gungfu.com/cart-htm/knives_western_tactical_knives_2.htm

The above sampling after a search on google for "tactical knives", not your grandfathers nail nicked pocket folders mind you, but "tactical" knives designed and used for defensive purposes, using all manner of "buzz" words from the standpoint these knives are designed to be used by people against other people.

Seems DOK is not the only web address or outfit that sees fit to advertise tactical folders specifically designed and whose primary role when designed was exclusively for self defense.

Are we now going to stop buying Bucks, MODS, customs designed by pros for the exclusivity of self defense? Better get rid of all your tacticals, as advertised, god forbid you have to defend yourself with one of these man killer tacticals, how ever would you explain carrying a Masters of Defense folder, etc? in an after action investigation?

Yes, the DOK ads were over the top, when talking degrees of tactical and how that mindset is projected by a companys products to the general public through advertising, I guess we had better stop buying them and stick to what our grandads carried lest we project the wrong image to the general public.

Can you imagine a prosecutor getting ahold of that buck ad? What a field day he would have in a courtroom protraying you to suit his needs to win a conviction.

And the beat goes on.

Brownie

 

[Daniel Moore]

From Bucks website: "Buck's rugged Tactical knives are engineered for trained professionals in military; law enforcement; fire, search & rescue, first response, and survival , as well as other demanding situations where "failure is not an option."

I do not see that as being over the top. Over the top is saying:

The handle is made of a low-durometer high tensile aramid composite that is impervious to everything from aviation fuel to Al Qaeda bodily fluids.

Also,

If you need a utility folder, this is not the knife for you.

defeats any notion that this knife could be used as an honest EDC. Nowhere does Buck speak of deanimation or decontamination. It mentions survival in the knife descriptions, and it doesn't focus on slashing through crowds of people. We all know that there are tactical knives; duh. But for a maker to advertise his as being non-utility, and describing it with things like deanimation, decontamination, blood splatter, body fluids etc, it makes the knife nothing but a killing tool. LEO's would not carry a Strider as their weapon, but they need something that won't break like a standard edc such as a Victorinox could. First Response and Fire Rescue would use it as a tough utility, not a weapon.

 

[Tom Krein]

Brownie,
If I ever have to use a knife for self protection what better name for it to have than "Masters of DEFENSE"

Tom

 

[brownie0486]

Tom,
I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment.

NeedleRemorse: The point was not about the ads being over the top, but of who the product was designed for. Guess if you are not military or police, fire/search and rescue a case could be made that you "an ordinary citizen" would have no need for such equipment. There are degrees of "over the top" in many advertisments, not just DOK's. Thats the point.

One of our custom makers just made available a knife advertised as "offense, personal carry". One might get the impression from that ad that no citizen need have use of such a knife unless there was some mystical evil intent on the users part. Imagine someone actually using that knife to defend himself with? The DA's would certainly have a field day, don't ya think?

The point is, there is much advertising out there besides DOK's that points to an offensive use of ones products. I just do not see everyone jumping on these mfgers or makers about their products and how non PC they are to advertise thusly, let alone inference a knife could be specifially designed and meant to be used in an offensive manner.

The DOK ads are over the top, thats been established here. Why single them out, however, when others are doing the same thing to some degree both in the custom and production arena, unless of course, it suits your individual needs and can be used as a possibly negative example somehow?

To inference a knife is designed for carry by the public to be used as an offensive weapon seems like the problem some are having with DOK's ads. You were just given several examples of others doing the same thing to various degrees. Lets start jumping on them as well here and not single out one companies ads.

In all seriousness though, advertising anything as tactical, offensive in nature where use is concerned, inferencing any of the above to any degree by anyone MAY hurt the industry as a whole one day. Lets take all the tacticals out of our pockets right now and vow to never be "a tactical thinker" ever again.

Nail nicks for everyone

Brownie

 

[Daniel Moore]

Brownie,

Other knives are what you consider "over the top" to some degree, however I do not see them as being nearly as brutally graphic. Most of them will also point out utility, whereas Dark OPS has claimed their knives to be non-utility.

 

[Daniel Moore]

You edited while I was posting, I'll get to the second part of your post now.

There are other companies that have over the top ads. They can be harmful to knifeknuts' image if these knives are advertised as all-offense blades. I would be happy to join in a thread about this, but this thread is about Dark OPS. So, in discussing Dark OPS, it was said that their ad campaign is over the top. I said that Dark OPS ad campaign is potentially harmful. The contraversy surrounding them about the design thievery is drawing more attention to them. The two issues I have with Dark OPS are:

1) They stole ER's designs.
2) Their ads are over the top.

Trying to defend them by saying "But others did it!" is useless. They're all harmful. You tried the same thing with point #1 by saying that all designs steal. They do steal small aspects, but there is no way that you can say that Dark Ops designs aren't stolen to a major extent when looking objectively. I've got problems with a lot of makers, A Dark OPS thread is not where I'll put them all.