dealing with Andrew Clifford Knives

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No worries. And one person out of thousands have something negative to say.....I guess one really CAN'T please everyone. Does ALMOST count here in this situation?! lol
 
As 'feirce', and QUICK, as Mr. Gaston is on the hollow handle thread. I'm sure he will show up shortly.
 
gonebad395 said:
After a great explanation from the accused I'd love to hear a rebuttle from the op because as I read and understand th accused has his ducks in a row. And I've been looking the op has been off and on this thread since accused has posted
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Thanks. As 'feirce', and QUICK, as Mr. Gaston is on the hollow handle thread. I'm sure he will show up shortly.
 
I did not contact the maker as I was not interested in pursuing the matter further, since the knife was heavily re-ground by Josh of REK, which I figured voided any warranty.

I was also not interested in making any claim after all the weird excuses and delays in shipping from the maker's nephew, and getting the knife six weeks after winning the auction, which is really unacceptable. Sonnerboomer should have gotten a negative Ebay feedback from me for this, and this is my one admitted failing...

Also, not getting a numbered knife when the knife was described as being one of the first 100 numbered knives was not encouraging either...

The initial edge holding performance of the knife was bad, with immediate micro chipping on Maple, but I hoped this was just the usual "shallow" power tool burned edge that is often seen on new knives (I had seen the same thing on a Chris Reeves Jereboam Mk II, and that had quickly sharpened out to an acceptable performance, even when the edge was made thinner). I figured I would hand-sharpen my way out of the bad steel... I sent the knife to RazorEdgeKnives to have its edge shoulder thinned from the original 0.040" behind the edge to 0.020", thinning down the entire blade side, which is a major re-working (the plunge line even being changed in shape to make it simpler for Josh).

I told Josh to not decrease the final edge bevel angle to my preferred 12 degrees per side, because Josh will no longer offer edge re-grinds by hand, these proving too time consuming. Given the initial poor edge performance, I felt the knife had a better chance of getting better if I reduced the edge angle myself by hand instead of having it done by a machine. Josh did an outstanding job with the main flats of the knife, as usual... Those main flats were done with a power tool, but my Lile Sly II was also done by Josh at the very same time, and came out fine from this exact same thinning treatment, to the same 0.020" value at the edge, with outstanding edge holding, and with an identical hand-applied edge to the ACK's final geometry.

I removed by hand a fair amount of metal from the final ACK edge bevel, which ended up slightly under 15 degrees per side, probably around 12-13 degrees, on a bevel thickness of 0.020", which is identical to most of my Randalls that I sharpen in the same way to the same angle, including the Model 12 that I compared it to side-by side on the same piece of wood.

Later in the early Spring I chopped with the ACK on a piece of Maple, the first test since the REK re-grind, and the edge immediately not only micro-chipped but curled up over lengths of about 3-5 mm over a depth of 0.3-0.5 mm. In pictures I have you can see the edge curled up completely upwards: I had never seen this kind of edge failure on Maple before. I can post the pictures when I get a new camera, as the wire interface is broken on my current camera.

I had pointed out a nearly as bad failure on a Vaughn Neeley SA9, also on Maple (chipping and even crumbling), and the knife was sent back to the maker (through Sam Wilson), and I never heard anything back from it... I did get accused though by Sam Wilson of not knowing how to sharpen a knife, even though all my other Lile, Randall and Colin Cox knives apparently do perfectly fine with my incompetence... I figured it would be the same thing here, given the 0.020" edge thinness and 24 degree inclusive angles I choose...: Many knives fail while chopping at these angles, and I weed them out on this basis: This is why I don't make a big deal of such failures... There is no point in telling me this is too thin: All the Liles, Randalls and one Colin Cox I have kept do not agree with you...

My main objection was not the performance of the steel, which I can't really prove, given the REK re-grind, but the delay in getting the knife from Sonnerboomer, and the suspicious pre-planned nature of the multiple delay excuses presented, especially with the missing serial number added in. I did think that the knife was performing poorly, but it seemed significant to me only in the context of the delay: I have no doubt that the maker knows how to make knives: The design and especially the sheath were outstanding.

If I had a point to make it would be this: Don't accept pictures presented as generic on Ebay, and if the knife comes from Sonnerboomer and does not correspond in the slightest with the presented description, say, it is slightly different from the photo, or it is missing its serial number, then return the knife immediately.

To the maker, if he did heat-treat the knife according to his knowledge and with good procedures, I would say to check on the steel source, and maybe test one blade's edge holding from each batch of steel. If it was me, I would test every blade by chopping wood, and then re-finish them to a new condition. Also, be very wary of power tools in the finishing stages, as many makers assume grinding temperatures are too low to have an effect, but I have seen even minor re-grindings can have a major impact. I think Randall V edge final bevels are done by hand because of this...

All I can say is the knife looked very good, was not heat-warped and was commendably straight and symmetrical, and had an outstanding sheath: The edge did not perform well at around a 24 degrees inclusive edge on a re-ground 0.020" thickness behind the edge. Beyond that I do not wish to pursue the matter further, as I no longer have the knife.

The $800 plus cost was because my screen converts the price into Canadian dollars.

Gaston
 
Dude you waited forever to even look at the knife and your bitching about delays this is crazy I mean just out of bounds crazy. You just seem like a complainer I hope the accused aren't tarnished from your pointless bs.complain about a edge after its reworked lmao wtf. And in your own admission the numbered thing didn't matter to you but now in your excuse it is back peddle much?
 
gonebad395 said:
Dude you waited forever to even look at the knife and your bitching about delays this is crazy I mean just out of bounds crazy. You just seem like a complainer I hope the accused aren't tarnished from your pointless bs.complain about a edge after its reworked lmao wtf. And in your own admission the numbered thing didn't matter to you but now in your excuse it is back peddle much?
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0_0 Thank you, my friend!
 
Gaston444 said:
I did not contact the maker as I was not interested in pursuing the matter further, since the knife was heavily re-ground by Josh of REK, which I figured voided any warranty.

I was also not interested in making any claim after all the weird excuses and delays in shipping from the maker's nephew, and getting the knife six weeks after winning the auction, which is really unacceptable. Sonnerboomer should have gotten a negative Ebay feedback from me for this, and this is my one admitted failing...

Also, not getting a numbered knife when the knife was described as being one of the first 100 numbered knives was not encouraging either...

The initial edge holding performance of the knife was bad, with immediate micro chipping on Maple, but I hoped this was just the usual "shallow" power tool burned edge that is often seen on new knives (I had seen the same thing on a Chris Reeves Jereboam Mk II, and that had quickly sharpened out to an acceptable performance, even when the edge was made thinner). I figured I would hand-sharpen my way out of the bad steel... I sent the knife to RazorEdgeKnives to have its edge shoulder thinned from the original 0.040" behind the edge to 0.020", thinning down the entire blade side, which is a major re-working (the plunge line even being changed in shape to make it simpler for Josh).

I told Josh to not decrease the final edge bevel angle to my preferred 12 degrees per side, because Josh will no longer offer edge re-grinds by hand, these proving too time consuming. Given the initial poor edge performance, I felt the knife had a better chance of getting better if I reduced the edge angle myself by hand instead of having it done by a machine. Josh did an outstanding job with the main flats of the knife, as usual... Those main flats were done with a power tool, but my Lile Sly II was also done by Josh at the very same time, and came out fine from this exact same thinning treatment, to the same 0.020" value at the edge, with outstanding edge holding, and with an identical hand-applied edge to the ACK's final geometry.

I removed by hand a fair amount of metal from the final ACK edge bevel, which ended up slightly under 15 degrees per side, probably around 12-13 degrees, on a bevel thickness of 0.020", which is identical to most of my Randalls that I sharpen in the same way to the same angle, including the Model 12 that I compared it to side-by side on the same piece of wood.

Later in the early Spring I chopped with the ACK on a piece of Maple, the first test since the REK re-grind, and the edge immediately not only micro-chipped but curled up over lengths of about 3-5 mm over a depth of 0.3-0.5 mm. In pictures I have you can see the edge curled up completely upwards: I had never seen this kind of edge failure on Maple before. I can post the pictures when I get a new camera, as the wire interface is broken on my current camera.

I had pointed out a nearly as bad failure on a Vaughn Neeley SA9, also on Maple (chipping and even crumbling), and the knife was sent back to the maker (through Sam Wilson), and I never heard anything back from it... I did get accused though by Sam Wilson of not knowing how to sharpen a knife, even though all my other Lile, Randall and Colin Cox knives apparently do perfectly fine with my incompetence... I figured it would be the same thing here, given the 0.020" edge thinness and 24 degree inclusive angles I choose...: Many knives fail while chopping at these angles, and I weed them out on this basis: This is why I don't make a big deal of such failures... There is no point in telling me this is too thin: All the Liles, Randalls and one Colin Cox I have kept do not agree with you...

My main objection was not the performance of the steel, which I can't really prove, given the REK re-grind, but the delay in getting the knife from Sonnerboomer, and the suspicious pre-planned nature of the multiple delay excuses presented, especially with the missing serial number added in. I did think that the knife was performing poorly, but it seemed significant to me only in the context of the delay: I have no doubt that the maker knows how to make knives: The design and especially the sheath were outstanding.

If I had a point to make it would be this: Don't accept pictures presented as generic on Ebay, and if the knife comes from Sonnerboomer and does not correspond in the slightest with the presented description, say, it is slightly different from the photo, or it is missing its serial number, then return the knife immediately.

To the maker, if he did heat-treat the knife according to his knowledge and with good procedures, I would say to check on the steel source, and maybe test one blade's edge holding from each batch of steel. If it was me, I would test every blade by chopping wood, and then re-finish them to a new condition. Also, be very wary of power tools in the finishing stages, as many makers assume grinding temperatures are too low to have an effect, but I have seen even minor re-grindings can have a major impact. I think Randall V edge final bevels are done by hand because of this...

All I can say is the knife looked very good, was not heat-warped and was commendably straight and symmetrical, and had an outstanding sheath: The edge did not perform well at around a 24 degrees inclusive edge on a re-ground 0.020" thickness behind the edge. Beyond that I do not wish to pursue the matter further, as I no longer have the knife.

The $800 plus cost was because my screen converts the price into Canadian dollars.

Gaston
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I am going to respond as nicely as possible.......


So, you found someone to "HEAVILY GRIND" the ACK SLY II made by me, changed the angle of the bevel to equivalent of a kitchen knife, THEN BLAME ME for the fact that edge curls, doesn't hold up?!! ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!!

Not only do you come off as a complainer, but you come off as an arrogant "know-it-all", but do you know, understand what "heavy grinding" does to the temper of a blade? And by reading the HH thread you do have experience in reworking blades to your IMPRACTICAL specs/use!

I don't want to argue with you, either, but you warrant, ASK FOR THE backlash by altering maker's knives THEN BLAMING THEM when your "specs" fail!!

I will research the knife shop you mention and see if I can get the guy on the phone that molested the blade to your specs!
 
I agree the complaint on the edge after you had a heavy grind man who knows how much heat was applied to this blade this whole post imho is so unwarranted now that the accused has chimed in. And agian I'm all for warnings about other venues but I truly belive the op did this to bash the accused hoping or knowing he wouldn't rebuttal surprise surprise
 
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Gaston444,

If you were willing to get on Bladeforums to "save" the masses from ill-built knives WHY pass the knife to another unknowing potential owner! Why not tell the buyer what you told us here? Is it because there would be no green cabbage in a willing fist?! The best solution was to contact ME, let me know about it. And best believe we would have a problem with having "hreavily grinded" a finished knife!!

I realize that not everyone is sensitive to what may happening on the other end, but my wife/family HAVE to come first! That will never change. Around that time of the sale, delayed shippment we were dealing with my wife's breast cancer, still are dealing with it. Not looking for sympathy, it is our reality. You were made aware of the delay, the knife was sent to you. You were aware of the COA, you were aware of the EZE LAP sharpener. When you did not want to wait for the EZE LAP sharpener it was shipped without. The knife was listed as used because it was owned by my nephew.

You were great to deal with -as my nephew states. To find out there is a problem WAY after altering the knife pretty much relieves me of any responsibility!! Be disappointed at yourself. Perhaps take all that knife knowledge you have, make your own knives exactly the way you want.

I will be more than happy to see all the pics you have taken of the ACK SLY II, aside from the one you posted to BF..with the altered sheath.
 
I would appreciate it if this thread were closed. Gaston444 has said he does not want to pursue the matter and I wish to let it be. I am sure there is enough here for the BF users, posters to form their own opinion on the matter. No need to continue to beat a dead horse.

NO RESPONSE NEEDED GASTON444. I can and will move on from it, I see you are ready to do the same. It's all about the approach.
 
Sam Wilson said:
Just a quick point for the sake of clarity (for those that don't want to read the hollow handle thread), Gaston and I have certainly had a lively discussion over a number of things in that thread. But to my knowledge he never bashed my knives, as I don't believe he has ever held one. I know I have never sold him one directly. Just wanted to avoid any confusion.

I hope the parties involved can get satisfaction.

Sam :thumbup:
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Glad to see you around, Sam. Haven't spoke to you since I deleted my old ACK knives Facebook page. The like page is till up, like the page and keep in touch.

I hate to bring you into this, but I heard, then read, about the "heavily altered" Vaughn Neeley SA9 sent by Gaston444. Instead of bringing that up, getting into detail here, on this thread, what is your opinion on finished, tempered knives being "heavily re-grinded"? In your opinion how much would you say that alters a knife blades temper? Also, would you care to explain how important it is to put an actual FUNCTIONAL bevel on a knife? In your experience how, why would one put such an impractical bevel on a knife, pay someone to do this if only concerned about chopping with it? You know how "talk" goes. lol. We have some of the same friends, which is how I heard bits & pieces of the Neeley SA9 situation, how Neeley was blamed for it. So, then the same thing happens with me. You don't need to say anything here about that situation. But if you could give us your take on the rest of my questions, as I value your opinion, I would appreciate it, friend.


HOW does one not realize that ALTERING a knife in any way AFTER it has been finished could alter that way it performs overall?! I Guess if I buy a new 6.2L Camaro, throw a FORD 302 in it then CRY FOUL to GM that their car is slow & sucks, blame them publicly then I am doing a great thing for my fellow man, right?!
 
I have to say that this is a perfect example of waiting for both sides of the story before making a judgement. The longer Gaston444 talked, the worse his story got. I feel that Gason444 is TOTALLY out of line here and that he owes Rez_Dawg an apology. Gaston444, you had the edge reground and totally changed the geometry of the blade! Whatever happens next is on you, not the maker!
 
Rez_Dawg said:
I am going to respond as nicely as possible.......


So, you found someone to "HEAVILY GRIND" the ACK SLY II made by me, changed the angle of the bevel to equivalent of a kitchen knife, THEN BLAME ME for the fact that edge curls, doesn't hold up?!! ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!!

Not only do you come off as a complainer, but you come off as an arrogant "know-it-all", but do you know, understand what "heavy grinding" does to the temper of a blade? And by reading the HH thread you do have experience in reworking blades to your IMPRACTICAL specs/use!

I don't want to argue with you, either, but you warrant, ASK FOR THE backlash by altering maker's knives THEN BLAMING THEM when your "specs" fail!!

I will research the knife shop you mention and see if I can get the guy on the phone that molested the blade to your specs!
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Josh is good people . He only does what people ask him to do though .

The maker is not at fault here at all . Josh does regrinds , regrinds weaken edges. That tid bit in the OP would of been great !
 
POsting info for those reading, following this thread. I called Josh at Razors Edge Knives, "REK" & left a message. From the messaging service I gather that Josh, REK SHARPENS knives only & does cerakoting. I plan on having a decent discussion with Josh about his take on the "heavily [re]grinded" blade.

"All I can say is the knife looked very good, was not heat-warped and was commendably straight and symmetrical, and had an outstanding sheath: The edge did not perform well at around a 24 degrees inclusive edge on a re-ground 0.020" thickness behind the edge. Beyond that I do not wish to pursue the matter further, as I no longer have the knife."

This rings in my head....."The edge did not perform well at around a 24 degree inclusive edge on a re-ground 0.020" thickness behind the edge" So, he had the blade reground to a slicing bevel then put it through the ringer as a chopper!! The ACK SLYII has an all around utility sharpen job on it, which serves well for chopping. As stated in a previous thread by another BF member in regards to Gaston'e bevel preference, he is wanting "a chef's knife to do Paul Bunyan work." in other words that bevel/re-grind you had put on the ACK SLY II would probably curl and not hold up to chopping, much like your average chefs knife will not hold up, either. Had you left the knife ALONE, WUTH the utlity edge on it, not try to turn it into a razor blade we would not be here having to talk about this!

For those following, because I see 9 users reading through this thread, click the link below, scan through and see the bashing of Vaughn Neeley. He is pretty much doing the very same thing to me with this thread!

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1132950-THE-Hollow-Handle-Knife-Thread/page98

I will follow up with how my conversation goes with Josh at Razors Edge Knives "REK". I will also be sending him the link to the thread. Basically a sharpening service is being blamed in the sense that they potentially ruined the temper of the blade by "heavily [re-]gringing" this knife. My bet is that will be called a bogus lie, or something of the sort, as sharpeners will not usually agree to work outside of their work/pricing bracket and chance being liable for damage. In this case that leaves the buyer with only one person left to point his finger at.


My utility edge is hand done and is pretty much a 'stock' bevel. Gaston444 explains the EDC SLICER edge bevel. As many know this is NOT the best bevel for chopping. I will be posting vids to youtube, then here of the ACK SLY II in action. From sawing with the sawback to chopping, handle strength etc. Stay tuned.......



 
Spartan00 said:
Rez_Dawg you have an email or way I can contact you without posting on the forum?
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Contact me through my website. www.andrewcliffordknives.com, CLICK "contact me" on the left hand side of the column. It's the quickest. I will respond tonight.

I don't know Josh, or anything about REK. I don't see a knife sharpener doing impractical things like changing the blade, needing to grind on it so much that it ruins the temper. Already the hole I see in the OP's story is the angle at which he put the bevel. That type of bevel is not made for chopping. I seriously doubt he changed the angle of the bevel on his Randall 12 he mentions- which he compared it to. Had he left the knife alone, not tried to play mad scientist with the blade, it would have chopped just as fine the rest of them. My brother owns an ACK SLY II and it has been used to chop quite a bit, as well as the tools in the pics on my website, scroll down first page.

The OP also mentions testing the knives. There is really no need because these designs of mine are used DAILY by those that REALLY know the functionality of these knives (they're all made the same way, using the same techniques), the science, geometry of the blades and do more with them then lolligaggin' in the woods chopping at random trees with impractical bevels on them!!
 
First, Josh @ REK is top notch. He does regrinds without effecting the HT, and he also does what is asked of him.
He should not be the topic here, that wouldn't fair.

From what I take from all of this is that the OP bought a knife that he didn't like, so instead of contacting the maker he sent it out to get re-worked by Josh, and then was unhappy because it didn't perform to his "expectations"

What I see here is a guy who has an issue with communication

You buy a knife, custom, whatever, and there is something you feel is not right with it, you talk to the maker. Most people are very willing to figure out the issue with you, regardless, that's where you start.
If your solution is to have it reground, you now own it and any issues that regrind may cause to the type of use that knife was designed for by the maker.

No complaining, no threads in the GBU, no crap about "folding edges"

When you have an issue with something there is a right and a wrong way to deal it. This is the WRONG way, ( in case there was any confusion )

Josh is a very talented and serious craftsmen, but he is augmenting other people's work. That needs to be remembered.
For some things it might make a knife better, for other things, not so much, and he will be the first to tell you that...
 
JR88FAN said:
First, Josh @ REK is top notch. He does regrinds without effecting the HT, and he also does what is asked of him.
He should not be the topic here, that wouldn't fair.

From what I take from all of this is that the OP bought a knife that he didn't like, so instead of contacting the maker he sent it out to get re-worked by Josh, and then was unhappy because it didn't perform to his "expectations"

What I see here is a guy who has an issue with communication

You buy a knife, custom, whatever, and there is something you feel is not right with it, you talk to the maker. Most people are very willing to figure out the issue with you, regardless, that's where you start.
If your solution is to have it reground, you now own it and any issues that regrind may cause to the type of use that knife was designed for by the maker.

No complaining, no threads in the GBU, no crap about "folding edges"

When you have an issue with something there is a right and a wrong way to deal it. This is the WRONG way, ( in case there was any confusion )

Josh is a very talented and serious craftsmen, but he is augmenting other people's work. That needs to be remembered.
For some things it might make a knife better, for other things, not so much, and he will be the first to tell you that...
Click to expand...

Yep, and Josh has been contacted. I'm sure i'll hear back from him, but, again, the degree of bevel the OP put on the blade is NOT best for chopping. Josh would know how well the blade was tempered after putting his "edge" on it. And we don't know how the edge looks because the OP has now gotten ghost on this thread, even though he promised pics none were ever posted. So we are left to take his words of the degree of angle of the bevel. Perhaps he should have spent his money on an axe instead of the ACK SLY II knife he purchased. ?

The OP did this very same thing in The Hollow Handle knife thread, made NASTY claims against Vaughn Neeley without EVER having contacted Vaughn, AND after modifying the blade, putting an impractical bevel on it. he BLAMED HEAT TREAT then, as well probably because he can't re heat treat after changing the geometry.

PHOTO CREDIT TO SAM WILSON ***

 
The OP gets no credit for anything he's implied in this thread from me, not only because of the fact that he's dissapeared, but his actions (lack of communication with the maker) just don't make sense.

I wouldn't worry too much about this thread Mr. Clifford. Your willingness to take the time to come on here and explain the situation is more then good enough.

Thank you, and I wish you and your family all the best....
 
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