Design laziness and the proliferation of frame/liner locks

killgar said:
No, I read every post in this thread before replying. In your opening post you said "Isn't it time for them to expand their horizon with something new and more innovative?", and "I guess throwing on a frame/liner lock is the easy (cheap) way out."", and "...if they can get away with just throwing on the basic frame lock".

Looks to me like you were being rather critical of knife makers for using frame and liner locks in their knives instead of "something new and more innovative". If you want "something new and more innovative", like I said, design a new lock yourself instead of accusing knife makers of taking "the easy (cheap) way out".
Click to expand...

I agree I should of used the word inexpensive in lieu of cheap so as not infer poor quality. I still don't understand why you keep saying I should design a new lock myself. Imagine if all industries gave that defeatist response when a consumer pushed for more innovation. When I bought my first Audi many years back I mentioned to the dealer and anyone who asked my opinion that it was front heavy and the 50/50 AWD system was boring. I loved the car but I felt they could do better. Did they tell me to shove it and design my own car? No, they listened to their customers and have since redesigned their chassis, moved the motor farther back over the axle to improve weight distribution (still not as good as BMW but better) and have given the AWD system a rear bias for a sportier drive and are selling more cars than ever.

Spyderco and Benchmade have already come out with some innovative new locks which have at least to me been game changers. I'm not saying that the frame lock should be abolished, I just wish more makers would take the chance to improve upon or try new ideas that's all.
 
Last edited:
I would imagine the knife makers, at least the larger companies with the ability to fund r & d, are continually experimenting with new designs both in knives and their locking systems. If it's good, it'll make them money. Look how many companies are using the Spyderco hole, or a variant thereof. And the better companies licensing it as they should.

But before any kind of lock can be put into play, it has to be tested and a cost analysis factored in. I'm betting that a great lock system is out there already but due to the complexity and cost, it isn't effective for real world use.

Due to the wide variety of environments that knives are used in, a lock also needs to be pretty simple cause if it has too many little moving parts in there, the first time it's dropped into a mud puddle or the sand, you're done. That's a reason a frame lock with flow design is popular. Just flush the crud out and keep going

As other posters mentioned too, I like my knife to be pretty simple to use and maintain. Back locks, slippies, frame locks now, have pretty much stood the test of time and real world use. Well made knives using these systems sell.

I will agree that I myself too don't care for the liner lock. The ones I've experience with were just too finicky and never seemed right. Little bit of oil or liquid on the lock face and it slips right off. I just like the heavier locking bar of a frame lock. And lock backs and slippies are great to use too. I like the Axis as well and I'm hoping Benchmade is working on the one weak spot, the omega spring, although I myself haven't had a failure with one.
 
Of course, this is my opinion, but it is based upon actual experience, and I know a lot of others who feel the same way. On our farm we used to laugh when a newby would bring one to work because it was sure to be a fail waiting to happen.
Click to expand...
If I was on a farm and cutting things all day, a fixed knife would be better than any folder.
 
DocT said:
I know I am about to get blasted for this but here goes anyway. I despise liner locks. They are weak, tend towards failure, and the detent is the only thing marginally holding the blade closed. The come upon in the pocket or purse, fail with puncturing cardboard, large fruit, and other simple things. I have had a lot of them fail and more come open in my pocket so I quit buying them. I have one and only one, a Spyderco Cat, currently and a pile of them in my junk box from 'good' manufacturers. I wife tossed hers, too. I know a lot of people who have had similar experience and will not buy a knife with a liner lock. Some, however oddly, still do, thinking they will get a better result (didn't someone say that is the definition of insanity?)

I agree that more needs to be done to bring out new locks. The holy grail would be a folding knife as strong as a fixed blade. The Axis (and similar) and Compression Locks are a step in the right direction. They work, are strong, and easy to use safely.

Of course, this is my opinion, but it is based upon actual experience, and I know a lot of others who feel the same way. On our farm we used to laugh when a newby would bring one to work because it was sure to be a fail waiting to happen.
Click to expand...

I have to wonder what work you were doing on your farm that was causing the liner lock to somehow fail, and I wonder why, if that level of work was being performed, that you weren't using a fixed blade?

Also, pretty much everything you said is the opposite of the experiences of most of the folks here. "Weak"? "tend towards failure"? "They come open in the pocket"? What? I've NEVER had a liner lock knife "come open" in my pocket, nor has the wife ever had this happen to any of her carry knives in any of her purses.

I really, really wish people would stop making things up or using hyperbole to try to make an opinion statement.

Show of hands, who here has ever had a liner lock knife just come open in their pocket?
 
Quiet said:
Show of hands, who here has ever had a liner lock knife just come open in their pocket? (All Hinderer guys get a pass LOL).
Click to expand...

Haha get that gravity knife talk out of here!

Realistically speaking, I've never had a liner lock come open in my pocket. Ever.

I've had 1, maybe 2 fail on me in the past but this was when I first started this hobby and was messing with brands like Tac-Force and the like.
 
grownstar said:
Haha get that gravity knife talk out of here!

Realistically speaking, I've never had a liner lock come open in my pocket. Ever.

I've had 1, maybe 2 fail on me in the past but this was when I first started this hobby and was messing with brands like Tac-Force and the like.
Click to expand...

I know, I know, I edited that comment out because I was referring to the detent more than the lock (because Hinderers are framelocks, not liner locks!) and didn't want to muddy the point. :thumbup:

Tac-Force flea market specials! Gotta love 'em! LOL
 
The RIL and Liner Lock are my two favorites by far, so I'm not complaining.
 
I'd like to see certain knife brands expand their line to include other locks because I like their products and more options are always better but on their own I like liners/frames. They've worked for me for decades now.
 
DocT said:
I know I am about to get blasted for this but here goes anyway. I despise liner locks. They are weak, tend towards failure, and the detent is the only thing marginally holding the blade closed. The come upon in the pocket or purse, fail with puncturing cardboard, large fruit, and other simple things. I have had a lot of them fail and more come open in my pocket so I quit buying them. I have one and only one, a Spyderco Cat, currently and a pile of them in my junk box from 'good' manufacturers. I wife tossed hers, too. I know a lot of people who have had similar experience and will not buy a knife with a liner lock. Some, however oddly, still do, thinking they will get a better result (didn't someone say that is the definition of insanity?)

I agree that more needs to be done to bring out new locks. The holy grail would be a folding knife as strong as a fixed blade. The Axis (and similar) and Compression Locks are a step in the right direction. They work, are strong, and easy to use safely.

Of course, this is my opinion, but it is based upon actual experience, and I know a lot of others who feel the same way. On our farm we used to laugh when a newby would bring one to work because it was sure to be a fail waiting to happen.
Click to expand...

I've carried 3 liner locks heavily over the years, and used two of them very heavily:

Kershaw Clash. $25 or so. Carried and used it every day for over a year and a half. Mine was combo edge. Terrible knife. Bead blast finish developed rust spots. Whole thing felt very cheap. Pocket clip fell off. Liner lock never failed, and locked up very tightly. Tip up carry, never opened in pocket (speed safe, so extra tension from spring).

Spyderco Persistence. About $35. Carried and used daily for about a year and a half after the Clash. Tip up. Never opened in pocket. Never failed. Locked up great. Used this thing heavily enough that centering went from dead straight to having a pronounced left slant when closed. Opens straight up somehow, albeit with left-right play, zero up-down play, as the lock up is still dead on and won't let it budge that way.

Third is an Al Mar Payara that has had a lot of pocket time but no use. Tip down.


Honestly, if even inexpensive liners are holding up under the abuse I put those through, I have to wonder what you've been doing.
 
Quiet said:
I have to wonder what work you were doing on your farm that was causing the liner lock to somehow fail, and I wonder why, if that level of work was being performed, that you weren't using a fixed blade?

Also, pretty much everything you said is the opposite of the experiences of most of the folks here. "Weak"? "tend towards failure"? "They come open in the pocket"? What? I've NEVER had a liner lock knife "come open" in my pocket, nor has the wife ever had this happen to any of her carry knives in any of her purses.

I really, really wish people would stop making things up or using hyperbole to try to make an opinion statement.

Show of hands, who here has ever had a liner lock knife just come open in their pocket?
Click to expand...

AUTO TARGETING ENGAGED---TROLL LOCATED

Amen Quiet--+1000
 
Most custom makers do not have the funds and/or means of production to R&D a new locking system. I'm not a big frame/liner lock fan myself. But it is a reliable, uncomplicated lock with (as others mentioned) no worries about patent/copyright infringement. Plus, they are wanting to use premium materials and a frame lock allows them to use a considerable amount of titanium for the frame and/or scale where as say an axis or BBL would cheapen it somewhat. The compression lock would alas be the only feasible option here, however in this day and age of tank folders, the comp lock would be a bit underbuilt in comparison. Plus, if you were to make the lock more stout, it would widen the knife considerably, which on an already superbuilt knife would make it difficult to fit in one's pocket.

It is far easier for a regular production knife company to come up with new and innovative ways of doing things, as they do have the funds and R&D for that.
 
I haven't bought a frame/liner lock in ten years save for an Ontario Utilitac I basically bought as my "carry it to a concert or sporting event and not care if I have to throw it in the trash can because they have metal detectors" knife.

I've got Axis locks, Nak Loks, piston locks, push button autos...no need for an antiquated, clumsy frame lock.
 
Quiet said:
Show of hands, who here has ever had a liner lock knife just come open in their pocket?
Click to expand...
*raises hand*

I wonder when your personal experience, or lack thereof, became some sort of standard.

They make these locks because these locks are cheap to make. And in turn, some consumers are adjusting their expectations to match this reality, where simplicity somehow justifies a higher cost. With that, cheap turns into elegant, for no reason other than marketing.
 
You can't lump liner and frame locks together. That is like lumping the Chevy Aveo with the Sonic. Similar design in some aspects but the performance is quite different. The liner lock is (!)GENERALLY(!) not as strong of a design. There are exceptions, but a frame lock will usually win in strength and stability. The issue with a liner lock is that it has no external prevention of lock slippage, like the hand provides on a frame lock or friction folder.

A properly made frame lock should be incapable of failing for what a folding knife should be used for. You should not be chopping, spine whacking, prying, or stabbing with a folder. A folder is made to be convenient, not indestructible. Always remember that a pivot can shear off, but it is unlikely that the blade of a foxed blade will shear right off.
 
About four years ago, one of my friends told me that he no longer would carry a liner lock at work (fireman) because of the possibility of lock failure. He claimed that liner locks fail when wearing turnout gloves. Only once have I seen him break his own carry policy. That was with a Gerber/Hinderer rescue knife, and even then he carried a second knife with a different lock design. Spyderco has been his favorite brand through the years, but he has recently shifted to Benchmade because of the Axis lock. He likes the Griptilian for EDC, swears up and down that the Mini Grip 555HG is the way to go.

I can see merit to my friends way of thinking, but can't help but wonder if other aspects of a knife design could be to blame for some of the dislike and failures of liner locks. Maybe a designer will include a large cut out in the scales for easy access to the lock or an extra metal tab on the liner so it is a little more convenient to push against. Both of these could be an easy path to lock failure under the right conditions.

I am sure that we can all agree that the liner lock in not the best thing on the market. Is it a good design? That is the real question. I think the answer has to be yes. Look at how custom knife makers use the basic liner lock concept as a core of many top notch knives that most of us can only dream about owning. Of course it can be improved upon.
The frame lock is a small step in the right direction. So is CRKT's AutoLAWKS system, even though many feel it is a solution to a problem that does not exsist. The key to a great liner lock is in the ingredients, just like a good pie or cake. Quality workmanship, high-grade materials, and a sound, well engineered design to start with.

Simple in design, the liner lock, unfortunately, lends itself to mass market products, inexspensive materials and poor workmanship. It has been said that there is always someone who can produce a product faster, cheaper, and appeal to a larger market. Proof of this is the proliferation of linerlocks we see today. Gerber's mass market program is a good example.

Although the liner lock may not be your cat's meow, it is here to stay. There will always be a market for it.
 
What I'd like to see is a knife that gives me greater lateral prying strength on my knife. I hope someone is working on this. Now that's innovative.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top