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Design laziness and the proliferation of frame/liner locks
- Thread starter Redmasta
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2013
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- 842
Yeah, so, what's up with his claims that none of the linerlocks he tried could support more than 100 lbs?
/shrug
No idea. All I know is what I know: they work fine for me. Then again, I haven't been in any situations where I needed something to hang weights on, unless I was within 20 feet of a weight rack.
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2013
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- 97
Im with some of the others here scratching my head trying to figure out how it happens that tberes always a few people who claim that they have had NUMEROUS. problems with liner locks failing "all the time." Do you also get struck by lightning once a week, regularly come home from camping having contracted another rare african virus. Maybe you have held at least 3 or 4 big checks written to you from publishers clearing house. Fact is most of us dont live on those kinds of odds. I guess this means that fortunately our liner/frame locks work all the time, too.
I work as a full time fly fishing guide and im cheap. This means I spend 6 days a week in he woods carrying "cheap" liner and frame locks that rarely cost more than $80. Hauling nooby clients up and down the river nearly every single day means that my "cheap" liner lock knives see a TON of use. Hacking on willows and various other small branches blockng trails up and down the river waiting to tear another pair of waders is daily, if not hourly occurrence. And of the DOZENS of tasks i use them for daily that some would consider abusive and more fixed blade territory; my lock failure rate is ZERO! Ive chipped counless blades, tore of and lost pocket clips, and seen more rust than i care to admit. But no lock problems. At least in the fall i give them a break by field dressing deer and elk. No problems there either. I just dont get it. The pnly thing guys seem to exaggerate more than fish stories and the size of their junk is how often their liner lock knives fail.
I work as a full time fly fishing guide and im cheap. This means I spend 6 days a week in he woods carrying "cheap" liner and frame locks that rarely cost more than $80. Hauling nooby clients up and down the river nearly every single day means that my "cheap" liner lock knives see a TON of use. Hacking on willows and various other small branches blockng trails up and down the river waiting to tear another pair of waders is daily, if not hourly occurrence. And of the DOZENS of tasks i use them for daily that some would consider abusive and more fixed blade territory; my lock failure rate is ZERO! Ive chipped counless blades, tore of and lost pocket clips, and seen more rust than i care to admit. But no lock problems. At least in the fall i give them a break by field dressing deer and elk. No problems there either. I just dont get it. The pnly thing guys seem to exaggerate more than fish stories and the size of their junk is how often their liner lock knives fail.
They work
They are tough
People prefer them
Companies design to meet demand
Most Small production/high end don't have the clout where they can produce whatever they want and people will buy. Thus, they have to design to what currently sells. Right now that are big beefy titanium frame locks. Moat dont have the money or time to find a better system.
Now, i think the microtech subframe lock is among the best simply because it can be a user serviceable replaceable insert and lock.
They are tough
People prefer them
Companies design to meet demand
Most Small production/high end don't have the clout where they can produce whatever they want and people will buy. Thus, they have to design to what currently sells. Right now that are big beefy titanium frame locks. Moat dont have the money or time to find a better system.
Now, i think the microtech subframe lock is among the best simply because it can be a user serviceable replaceable insert and lock.
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2001
- Messages
- 1,242
Actually, there is. What do you think keeps the detent ball kept in place? The lock (AKA leaf spring) applies spring tension to help keep the blade closed. I understand the point you're driving at, but the statement you make is false.
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Ding! :thumbup:
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2013
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Ding +2 :thumbup: I was thinking the same thing
chiral.grolim
Universal Kydex Sheath Extension
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- Dec 2, 2008
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Technically, hardheart is correct and your statement supports him. The ball-detent holds the blade in place via friction just as a ball-detent keeps a friction-folder blade in place, spring-pressure (be it a lock-bar or handle-scales) holds the ball in place but does NOT hold the blade closed via direct spring-tension on the blade or tang. However, the point is moot since as soon as the tang attempts to overcome the detent, the leaf-spring or scales apply spring-tension to keep the ball in place if they are not doing so already.
In the AXIS-lock and CBBL, the springs continually put pressure on the lockbar/ball to move it forward onto the tang. Since the pressure is continuous, one could argue that indirect spring-tension keeps the blade closed. *shrug*
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- Jan 8, 2001
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Same thing. The axis and CBBL both apply pressure to something (bar/ball) that is in contact with blade tang. Those objects (bar/ball) are applying pressure, and ergo friction, against the blade tang. Same principle as the detent ball, just along a different axis. So, technically, I'm still correct and your statement supports me. Thanks for the description! *shrug*
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- Jul 13, 2013
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As blade man stated, the Axis/cbbl does not use direct spring pressure to hold the blade closed just like the liner/frame lock does not use direct pressure to hold the blade closed. The idea is identical, though. The only difference is a liner lock uses a large, stout spring against a small ball bearing for resistance while axis cbbl uses a small, thin (omega) spring against a large, robust ball bearing. The pressure does not have to be direct to provide leverage and make it work. Your car's spring dont have to be attached directly to the wheel to work. Same thing.
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2013
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If you feel a liner lock doesnt have enough pressure to hold a blade closed securely, then the issue should be with the makers/manufacturers choice of engagement with the detent and lock bar interface. A linerlock can be made to hold a blade on place with as much or as little pressure as you desire. Most choose to jave a knife that is easier to open than holding the blade securely in place. This is not a fault of the design. It just makes a knife easy to open one handed because i suspect 99% of people who purchase said knife use them for that intended purpose. A l.l. can be made to hold a blade closed with enough pressure tbat it is impossible to open, let alone worrying about deploying inadvertantly in pocket.
chiral.grolim
Universal Kydex Sheath Extension
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"The only difference" is that the "large, stout spring" applying sideways force against a tiny ball-bearing that sits only part-way into a divot along the side of the blade-tang provides very little frictional area to apply resistance in the direction (force vector) of the blade opening, vs. little springs providing force along a direct vector resisting blade-opening and leveraging a much larger detent to do the work. Those small, thin springs accomplish the same task to a greater extent, providing enhanced safety/reliability in a smaller package. *shrug* I think hardheart's point relied on those vectors being directed against the blade opening.
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2001
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I know the point he was making, I was just pointing out that his statement was incorrect, frame locks and liner locks DO use spring tension.
You're now discussing the merits of the styles, and which does a better job, which is not what you originally described. Regardless of how well either does it or the type of spring they use, the point is that all of the lock styles mentioned (maybe even all types?) do in fact use a spring to provide a bias towards remaining closed. *shrug* No change in description or terminology will change that fact.
You're now discussing the merits of the styles, and which does a better job, which is not what you originally described. Regardless of how well either does it or the type of spring they use, the point is that all of the lock styles mentioned (maybe even all types?) do in fact use a spring to provide a bias towards remaining closed. *shrug* No change in description or terminology will change that fact.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2000
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- 3,794
Neither lock uses spring tension to keep the knife closed, or you are referring to detent ball?
As for the rest, tried and true is good, but doesn't mean to get stuck with it. Axis lock is much better, easier, intuitive etc, and that's not the end of it either. I am not so sure where customers demanded liner locks or frame locks, may be a few from "trusted and tried" crowd, but on a large scale most of the customers don't even know anything about the locks, and if you check forums and sites like yahoo answers bunch of people can't even disengage liner locks, because they do not know it's there.
P.S. Modern marketing is scientific, and it keeps up with science(neuro, human behavior) much better than the knife industry
It's rather naive to think you can be completely free of its influence.- Joined
- Jul 13, 2013
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Chiral, now youre arguing for the sake of arguing. Are you really saying that if you were to set the detent ball to fully engage into the detent hole and bend the liner to apply a much greater force on the detent and blade that it would still not provide ample force to retain the blade well. Are you nuts? Seriously, thats a pretty asinine suggestion. Have you taken a knife apart before and played with adjusting the size of the detent hole and the force applied to the lock bar. I have, several times. And i assure you it is very easy to make it not only retain the blade strongly, but make it EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to open without touching the pivot.
Again, this is all a moot point anyway because this is proving (again) that your entire argument is with the execution/adjustment in the liner lock and not with the actually the design itself.
Again, this is all a moot point anyway because this is proving (again) that your entire argument is with the execution/adjustment in the liner lock and not with the actually the design itself.
stabman
Gold Member
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- Sep 17, 2007
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- 21,327
if you check forums and sites like yahoo answers bunch of people can't even disengage liner locks, because they do not know it's there.
P.S. Modern marketing is scientific, and it keeps up with science(neuro, human behavior) much better than the knife industry
Many people cannot figure our an axis or compression lock, and my dad has run into many engineers who cannot figure out a simple lock-back (just kept pushing on the spine of the knife...)
As for being free of advertising influence, that's not naivety...it's simply another testament to my overwhelmingly amazing greatness.
(modesty being probably my greatest trait
)
chiral.grolim
Universal Kydex Sheath Extension
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- Dec 2, 2008
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Opinel uses a manual lock, some others use different kinds of manual locks (including blades the fold sideways), Microtech's OTFs rely on a manual lever, don't they..? But i think you are correct that most "automatic" locks rely on a spring to directly or indirectly keep the blade from opening.
Anyway, what was this thread about, again?
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- Jul 13, 2013
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Gator, please read through. Both styles of locks rely on spring pressure. Not direct but indirect. AGAIN--- Axis/CBBL use spring pressure (omega springs) on a ball bearing for retention when closed. A liner/frame lock relies on a lock bar providing tension on a small ball bearing being pressed into a hole on the blade (detent). NOW, how does neither lock rely on ANY spring pressure to keep the blade closed?
chiral.grolim
Universal Kydex Sheath Extension
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- Dec 2, 2008
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Nono, a liner-lock is perfectly capable of being built with sufficient detent, I'm pointing out that the strength of that detent relies greatly on the size/shape of the ball: deeper fit with steep slope = harder to dislodge, even with weak spring tension, because the blade tang is pushing up that slope to move the ball out of the way. If the ball is too small, the detent is weak unless the spring-pressure is VERY strong (i.e. very diffcult to actually open the blade for use) and even then it is a very short travel-distance for detent to be overcome and all that spring-tension is for naught.
For axis, cbbl, back-lock, even button-lock (though again spring-force is sideways rather than directly applied), the spring is usually holding a much larger object directly in the path of the tang's motion. Even with a much lighter, weaker spring, the sloped-tang must proceed with consistent force against the spring-powered object for a longer time before breaking free of the spring's influence, unless the user applies force against the spring and flips the blade out.
Since it doesn't take much time/distance of force application to overcome a liner/frame-lock's detent, the spring must be that much stronger to prevent accidental opening... and it commonly is not. Even a single omega-spring is sufficient to keep the lock-bar forward on an axis-lock - not much strength at all - and it reduces the likelihood of accidental opening because applied force must continue until the tang achieves a neutral position against the lock-bars spring-pressure trying to close the blade.
Not arguing for the sake of arguing, just talking physics and lock designs.