Design laziness and the proliferation of frame/liner locks

hardheart said:
*raises hand*

I wonder when your personal experience, or lack thereof, became some sort of standard.

They make these locks because these locks are cheap to make. And in turn, some consumers are adjusting their expectations to match this reality, where simplicity somehow justifies a higher cost. With that, cheap turns into elegant, for no reason other than marketing.
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There's an objective standard. Everyone here has owned a linerlock, or multiples, or even many multiples, of linerlocks. Therefore, if we're to accept that they are weak, and that linerlocks have a real danger of opening in peoples' pockets as part of some design flaw* then doc there would have a point. Since there aren't any sticky threads at the top of this section with a title like "OMG BEWARE, LINERLOCKS ARE WEAK AND WILL OPEN IN YOUR POCKET!" along with like, thirty pages of comments of people recounting stories of such a thing happening, here on Bladeforums**, that tells me that no, linerlocks DON'T have some sort of flaw that causes linerlock equipped knives to open in someone's pocket on any objective, regular basis.

This means that doc's attempt at an objective statement is flawed, and your own experience is also an outlier.

Linerlocks are fine, given you aren't abusing the knife. That's another reason why a trillion people design knives with liner locks (besides it being free).


Edit: Also, to make my own position clear (and to be on topic): I appreciate and prefer framelocks. Linerlocks though, are just fine with me, and of the like, seventy or eighty knives I've had, not a one has failed. Of course, I generally use tools to perform functions they were designed for. I use knives to cut things, that's about it. I've never had one fail, and I've not heard of any of my extensive group of knife-buds having a linerlock fail.






*Hint: in other words, exactly the opposite of what's ACTUALLY happening.
** Only the biggest friggin' knife forum on the innarwebz.
 
hardheart said:
With that, cheap turns into elegant, for no reason other than marketing.
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No, elegant is a personal judgement based on criteria unique to each product and person.
Marketing? I'm sorry, but I missed the big frame-lock commercial at half-time during the Superbowl; was it really good?

Geeze, what I find annoying is the need for other folks to ascribe all sorts of motivations and characteristics in order to bolster their own preferences.

To me, the elegance of a well-made frame-lock is a thing of beauty.
I also like the track record of the lock-back.
The gadget-factor of the AXIS lock (along with strength).
The compression lock another one with elegant simplicity, especially in the integral versions.

I also like fixed blades and slip-joints for various reasons. :eek:

Don't try to stick me in the box of your preconceptions.
 
It also could be driven by the experimentation with new blade steels lately. They innovate with blade materials instead. I mean i remember just a coulpe years ago everyone was busting nuts about how well zdp took an edge, and having nightmares about whther or not they would be able to sharpen in, likening its sharpness to lasers and light sabers.... but now it barely gets a mention
 
sweet_hitch-hiker said:
I mean i remember just a coulpe years ago everyone was busting nuts about how well zdp took an edge, and having nightmares about whther or not they would be able to sharpen in, likening its sharpness to lasers and light sabers.... but now it barely gets a mention
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That means it's time for me to get some. :)
I always come along after the trend has died. :D
 
DocT said:
Of course, this is my opinion, but it is based upon actual experience, and I know a lot of others who feel the same way. On our farm we used to laugh when a newby would bring one to work because it was sure to be a fail waiting to happen.
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I hope you didn't laugh in his face.... my dad works and has worked on various farms for almost 30 years and used mostly a traditional knife with no lock at all... a linerlock would feel like a bank vault to him. ;)
 
stabman said:
That means it's time for me to get some. :)
I always come along after the trend has died. :D
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I want some, in a kitchen knife though!

OP, don't foget bucks new 'strong lock', chris reeves ti lock, button locks, spydercos cage ball lock, and i'm sure there's more out there, but most just never catch on for one reason or another.


I think ultimatelyit comes down to people buy liner/frame locks more so companies produce them more
 
I used to not like liner locks because of crappy CRKT liner locks.Now I found I don't mind them. I've got one from benchmade, one from spyderco and one from ZT


A well done frame or liner lock is a safe efficient lock.
 
I've never had a linerlock or framelock fail on me. They're simple, they work, and most of the knives I like, have them.
 
I just watched an insane vdo where a good 'ole lock back held over 250lbs.
I'm glad I have one.
 
Quiet said:
Linerlocks are fine, given you aren't abusing the knife.

Of course, I generally use tools to perform functions they were designed for. I use knives to cut things, that's about it. I've never had one fail, and I've not heard of any of my extensive group of knife-buds having a linerlock fail.
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Sorry, didn't realize having a knife in my pocket was abuse. Also didn't realize that having a knife in my pocket increased failure rate compared to cutting things. You asked a specific question expecting no response because you lack the anecdotal experience. Well, I provided my anecdote to prove that you are objectively wrong. The only knives I've had partially open in pocket relied on detents. That leaves it down to liner and frame locks when I did not have the spine against the pocket seam. There is NO spring tension applying closing pressure, your thoughts and feelings on the matter do not negate this fact.

stabman said:
Marketing? I'm sorry, but I missed the big frame-lock commercial at half-time during the Superbowl; was it really good?

To me, the elegance of a well-made frame-lock is a thing of beauty.
I also like the track record of the lock-back.
The gadget-factor of the AXIS lock (along with strength).
The compression lock another one with elegant simplicity, especially in the integral versions.
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Thanks for hopping in the box on your own. Again, you are ascribing greater value to lower input costs. Fewer parts, less machining, less assembly, yet greater "elegance". Every well made lock is elegant, that's in the proper execution. Making it easier doesn't make it better. The fact that you don't acknowledge the marketing you are exposed to daily speaks to its effectiveness. No, it doesn't take a Super Bowl ad to market. On the low end of estimates are exposed to 250 marketing messages a day. If the simple existence of product labels counts as marketing, as some estimates use, then you get up to 20,000 brand images and messages a day. But hey, I bet you never read a post, ad, sell sheet, web page, or review about a liner or frame lock knife. Nope, you never gained any information about them from anyone. Marketing is not simply advertising.
 
hardheart said:
Thanks for hopping in the box on your own. Again, you are ascribing greater value to lower input costs. Fewer parts, less machining, less assembly, yet greater "elegance". Every well made lock is elegant, that's in the proper execution. Making it easier doesn't make it better. The fact that you don't acknowledge the marketing you are exposed to daily speaks to its effectiveness. No, it doesn't take a Super Bowl ad to market. On the low end of estimates are exposed to 250 marketing messages a day. If the simple existence of product labels counts as marketing, as some estimates use, then you get up to 20,000 brand images and messages a day. But hey, I bet you never read a post, ad, sell sheet, web page, or review about a liner or frame lock knife. Nope, you never gained any information about them from anyone. Marketing is not simply advertising.
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Whatever dude.
Enjoy playing internet marketing psychologist. :rolleyes:
 
dkb45 said:
You can't lump liner and frame locks together. That is like lumping the Chevy Aveo with the Sonic. Similar design in some aspects but the performance is quite different. The liner lock is (!)GENERALLY(!) not as strong of a design. There are exceptions, but a frame lock will usually win in strength and stability. The issue with a liner lock is that it has no external prevention of lock slippage, like the hand provides on a frame lock or friction folder.

A properly made frame lock should be incapable of failing for what a folding knife should be used for. You should not be chopping, spine whacking, prying, or stabbing with a folder. A folder is made to be convenient, not indestructible. Always remember that a pivot can shear off, but it is unlikely that the blade of a foxed blade will shear right off.
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Have a read.
 
A.P.F. said:
Have a read.
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That is interesting, because there seems to be a couple of folders with no cutouts -- off the top of my head, one of the Enlans and Bee folders have no cutouts in their liners.

Here's a post from a guy who got a custom made framelock with very little reduction

tr-2.jpg

Now the specs: .200 thick, 3.75 long CPM-154 blade, with reverse tanto blade shape with the first false edge shapened. Each handle slab is .250 thick Ti, with the portion under the multicolor Micarta .100 thick, and that is where the lock also flexes with no additional cutout. The backspacer is stainless steel to put more weight at the thin part of the handle. It also has a licensed Hinderer lock stop. 3/16 Hardened stop pin, and custom turned .250 hardened 440C pivot and screw. The weight is 10.75 ounces.
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http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...est-framelock-ever-made?highlight=thor+folder
 
hardheart said:
Sorry, didn't realize having a knife in my pocket was abuse. Also didn't realize that having a knife in my pocket increased failure rate compared to cutting things. You asked a specific question expecting no response because you lack the anecdotal experience. Well, I provided my anecdote to prove that you are objectively wrong. The only knives I've had partially open in pocket relied on detents. That leaves it down to liner and frame locks when I did not have the spine against the pocket seam. There is NO spring tension applying closing pressure, your thoughts and feelings on the matter do not negate this fact.
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Listen, hate to break it to you, but your personal experience doesn't mean...well, anything in the big scheme of things. Maybe you had a poorly constructed knife. That happens sometimes. Blaming the lock, and then taking a stance that that particular lock design sucks because OMG this one knife I had kept opening in my pocket!!!!11! is just poor logic.

Sorry.
 
Bottom line here is knife companies produce products that will sell and turn a profit,those are the designs they will make.;)
 
jac_solar said:
He said that none of the linerlocks could support more than 100 lbs -- what's up with that? Didn't that BladeHQ test posted awhile ago show that a random, in-expensive linerlock could easily support 150 lbs?
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Actually, it showed that liner locks and framelocks are easily capable of supporting far more weight than that. Certainly, either one can support far more weight than the slip joints that have been capably serving for years.

As an aside, my pockets are fine. The 0566 isn't shredding them, as the link suggests it should.
 
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