Designer vs Makers

mitchnola

mitchnola

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I’m a little torn on how I feel about the new trend of guy’s that just come up with some designs on auto cad then get some manufacturer (most likely in china) to make their designs and poof, they’re now owners of “knife company”. I’m torn because shit, I’d love to do that myself vs they really have no skin in the game. No years of learning, training, sweating through hard work to master their craft that most successful makers go through to produce their own designs and products. The fact that just anybody like me with no experience in knife design or production can learn auto cad, come up with a design, get it it manufactured (china) and then charge top dollar is a disappointing trend that seems to be taking off in the industry.

Maybe I’m missing something and am totally wrong but at the moment I pass on a lot of knives that I actually like the design of and are impressed by the quality build because I know they’re just a designer getting their product made in China. I find it very disappointing when some of these “companies” are charging $4-500, which is the starting price for your midtech and smaller production companies (real companies with staffs, facilities and real overhead). I avoid china made products because I like to support the good ole USA. I think I’d be more inclined to buy just a designer’s knife if made by an American company but I’m still left thinking do I really want to support this trend in the industry or should I start drawing my own designs and have my brand new knife co at the 2024 blade show? Where do you stand?
 
I don't blame a Chinese maker or company for Chinese government policies just like I don't blame American makers for whatever American government policies are going on at the time. Just like Russian makers are not responsible for their country invading Ukraine.

I like buying from US makers/companies, but these knives usually cost more for what you get compared to countries where labor is much cheaper. I don't mind paying the premium.

YMMV.
 
So much to address...


-First off, I'm good with it. Some of the best knives I own are designed by someone and then produced by a well-known Manufacturer...sometimes right here in the great U.S. of A.

-As stated above, just because it's a "separate Designer/Manufacturer" knife doesn't mean it's a Chi-Com product. Many American Manufacturers have been calling on Designers outside of their respective companies for years.

-"No years of learning, training, sweating through hard work to master their craft that most successful makers go through to produce their own designs and products." Not sure I can agree with this. There are guys out there who've been using particular knives/tools, for their specific "adventures", for decades. Whether hiking, hunting, camping, "adventuring", "Soldiering", etc...Believe me...They've put in the time. Despite owning some great tools, they discovered that nothing was available that met all their specific needs. So, they set-out to design a knife/tool that fit their needs. Some of those guys went looking for a Manufacturer to produce their designs and found that the Manufacturer was open to production, but also wanted to add the design to their product line. So, in that instance, even the Manufacturer acknowledged a void...and we're ALL better for it, in my humble opinion.


These are just a few thoughts.

And, as always, your mileage may vary.
 
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I wanted to add...


George Washington Sears was not a knife Maker. Yet, his design...the "Nessmuk"...remains one of the most iconic designs to come out of the U.S. If I'm not mistaken, they believe that he used a company that produced surgical razors to build "his" knife design.

...and thank goodness he did. Again, we're all better for it.
 
Alone said:
So much to address...


-First off, I'm good with it. Some of the best knives I own are designed by someone and then produced by a well-known Manufacturer...sometimes right here in the great U.S. of A.

-As stated above, just because it's a "separate Designer/Manufacturer" knife doesn't mean it's a Chi-Com product. Many American Manufacturers have been calling on Designers outside of their respective companies for years.

-"No years of learning, training, sweating through hard work to master their craft that most successful makers go through to produce their own designs and products." Not sure I can agree with this. There are guys out there who've been using particular knives/tools, for their specific "adventures", for decades. Whether hiking, hunting, camping, "adventuring", "Soldiering", etc, believe me, they've put in the time. Despite owning some great tools, they discovered that nothing was available that met all their specific needs. So, they set-out to designing a knife/tool that fit their needs. Some of those guys went looking for a Manufacturers to produce their designs and found that the Manufacturer was open to production, but also wanted to add the design to their product line. So, in that instance, even the Manufacturer acknowledged a void...and we're ALL better for it, in my humble opinion.


These are just a few thoughts.

And, as always, your mileage may vary.
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I’d agree with you if they designed a new innovation like locking mechanism or deployment but seems to me the majority are just another folding knife and the more successful ones are very cool designed folding knives that appeal to a lot of people. And yes, they deserve credit for the appealing design but I don’t think that automatically means they put in years of research or use but that they may have just gotten lucky. While I must admit that as you described is also just as possible.

As far as who’s doing the manufacturing, unfortunately from my experience going to blade show, the majority are made in China.

One thing I noticed, that when I saw some good looking knives from a company I never heard of, when asked where the knives were made I got a lot of reactions that made it seem they were tired of the question and knew I was going to walk off because the answer was China. At least some of them posted at their booth “made by Reate” which I appreciated cause I didn’t waste my time or theirs.

Personally I’m not going to support any Chinese manufacturers because we have great ones here which needs support and encourages more to take the risk of starting a new American company.
 
Let's drop China out of the equation or we'll drop this thread like a rock...just like all the others for the umpteenth time.

Discuss whether or not you wish to buy knives which are designed by one party, but built by a third party...or if you want to be a purist about the process.

Only warning you're going to get.
 
Meh, I get where you're coming from, but really it just gives us knife lovers more knives to choose from. Sounds like you want to do it yourself but maybe want to check on the opinions of others first? I say do it! Try to bring something to the industry that's a bit different than what we have, or make something more traditional with your own flair put into it. I have one knife that I'd like to design. I'd also really like to make it myself (for others), however I do not currently have the land or a shop in which to make said knife commercially. I wouldn't mind getting a design made a company I trust that has the fit and finish level that I like to see, however I'd be worried about spending my life savings on the project and it not taking off. I will say the people I've seen who have designed knives and farmed out the manufacturing appear to be being quite successful at it in this market. Perhaps for every successful designer doing this lately there are many others who have failed, however the market seems to be kind to new designers the last 5 years or so.

Edit: Took out mention of origin of manufacturer.
 
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I hate how once they make a design and have it built they have to go around hocking it to everybody on YouTube so there is praise upon praise heaped onto them for how amazing their new knife is.

ONLY exception is Knafs, Ben had a lot invested in his time at Blade HQ, made them what they are today, and I like his company.
 
Yo Mama said:
I hate how once they make a design and have it built they have to go around hocking it to everybody on YouTube so there is praise upon praise heaped onto them for how amazing their new knife is.

ONLY exception is Knafs, Ben had a lot invested in his time at Blade HQ, made them what they are today, and I like his company.
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Oh I didn't know that Ben was a part of the Blade HQ company, that's good to know. I really like a few of the scale patterns they made for the Lander.
 
LimpCroissant said:
Oh ok, I just knew of him through Reddit. Good to know, I'm glad he's doing good. Thanks for the insight. 👊
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www.benbanters.com

Why I’m Leaving Blade HQ — BEN BANTERS

It all begins with an idea. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.
www.benbanters.com www.benbanters.com

It's a little old but here's from when he left blade HQ. He also did some work for CRKT. I won't hold that against him though! 🙂
 
Huh, interesting. He sounds like a good guy that is honest with customers, that's good to see! Sorry to see him go, hopefully he'll have success in whatever he does next. Thanks.

Alright, sorry for temporarily derailing the thread guys, I apologize.
 
There are designers I'll seek out, across different knife companies, more than products from individual knife companies. Sometimes though, you get lucky and can have it both ways. With companies like Spyderco, Kellum, MKM, and Kizer; they seem do a great job either as knife designer co-ops or as companies that do a great job in bringing in talented designers. You also get lucky with companies that are driven by talented designers: like LT Wright and Demko.

Sadly, we see some of those companies diminished over time. Cold Steel was once a place where great knife designers felt welcome and now is just a corporate property with some legacy models. The collaborations that made Zero Tolerance the brand that it is seem to have stagnated, with most of the energy of the parent company (Kai Group) now focused on the Kershaw brand.
 
I think there's room for both, and both have a contribution to make.

It's easy to be brave when all you're doing is sketching, because you don't have much time and money invested. Knife designers who third-party the metal work are more likely to throw stuff at the wall, which is how we get new ideas/designs/shapes. Not that the human hand has changed in a real long time, so there's going to be a limit to what will actually stick, once applied to the metaphorical wall.

The problem with this is that quantity makes it difficult to find quality, and when you're faced with 962 similar-looking linerlocks, even the most enthusiastic enthusiast can feel their eyes roll back into their head.

Sole-authors, who curate the process from pencil sketch to boxing up and mailing out finished knives have a lot of time invested, they charge accordingly, and you know what you're getting. They're also more likely to offer free sharpening, and be willing to make it right, if their knife doesn't work the way you expected. They may not innovate much, but they make a darn fine knife.

Now, there is an outlier, I once heard them called "CNC knife bros". It's a provocative title, for sure.

I guess it's the guy who buys a Tormach or a small Haas and starts making small batches of knives. Seems like small-batch CNC makers are a bit of a wildcard: some are solid, get the heat-treat and QC right, and do their best to make it right if a customer has a problem.

On the other end are the guys who take a bunch of deposits then go radio silent with the money. The problem is that you can't be sure what you're going to get, early on. I would say that somebody whose still making knives after the three year mark is probably going to stick around for a while.

Another way to think of it is, if you're a casual consumer of knives, then the current saturation is great, because you have so many choices, so many subtly unique knife experiences, and the buy-in is relatively low.

If you're looking for a knife to do serious things in serious places for serious reasons, or you just like knowing the quality is built-in, you're more likely to look at sole-author makers.
 
It depends. We have several knife makers here that have there own forge and make custom knives, and also have had design contracts with large companies. More power to them, it's a great way to expose more people to their craft.

Also, with modern CNC, makers are able to make small limited runs of a great product. Here are pictures from the workshop of a BF maker that I like: https://volunteerknife.com/?page_id=12. The point being, you don't need an old fashioned forge and many days time to make a single knife anymore. CAD and CNC have reduced the overall TAT a lot, the maker can produce small numbered batches (in the US), and good 3rd party heat-treaters (e.g., Peters) make sure the final product passes muster. And it's not just fixed blades. My most favorite folder (a Kuros by Josh) was made like this.

I love this approach and do my best to support it :)

mitchnola said:
I’m a little torn on how I feel about the new trend of guy’s that just come up with some designs on auto cad then get some manufacturer (most likely in china) to make their designs and poof, they’re now owners of “knife company”.
Click to expand...

People do what they do, if they find customers, good for them. For me, these knives are just boring.
 
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ferider said:
It depends. We have several knife makers here that have there own forge and make custom knives, and also have had design contracts with large companies. More power to them, it's a great way to expose more people to their craft.

Also, with modern CNC, makers are able to make small limited runs of a great product. Here are pictures from the workshop of a BF maker that I like: https://volunteerknife.com/?page_id=12. The point being, you don't need an old fashioned forge and many days time to make a single knife anymore. CAD and CNC have reduced the overall TAT a lot, the maker can produce small numbered batches (in the US), and good 3rd party heat-treaters (e.g., Peters) make sure the final product passes muster. And it's not just fixed blades. My most favorite folder (a Kuros by Josh) was made like this.

I love this approach and do my best to support it :)



People do what they do, if they find customers, good for them. For me, these knives are just boring.
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I appreciate the open market and everyone certainly has right to get their product to market through any means necessary. I guess personally I just hope this isn’t the general direction of the industry where the majority of knives available are from designers who have no hand in the fabrication of their products. I guess I feel like I’m getting a little more expertise from a designer that also makes their product. However I must admit there are probably just designers, then just fabricators at all larger companies, so maybe the distinction is pointless. I would still feel better supporting a designer with years of experience in the industry rather than some joe schmo who designs something on auto cad and then finds a manufacturer and wam bam they’re now a designer with a company. I may be wrong but I got that impression from quite a few companies at the blade show this past yr.
 
This is hardly a "new trend". Third party manufacturing commissioned by independent designers has been happening for many years. Its just more visible now that more and more are being made off shore.
As to "anybody can do it", well, not really. Read through the Jack Wolf threads to see what it takes to do it....
 
Arathol said:
This is hardly a "new trend". Third party manufacturing commissioned by independent designers has been happening for many years. Its just more visible now that more and more are being made off shore.
As to "anybody can do it", well, not really. Read through the Jack Wolf threads to see what it takes to do it....
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Will do, thanks. Send a link if possible
 
A huge part of being a successful company is marketing and distributing. You can make a knife with a brilliant design, but without the essential sales department, not to mention, quality control, brand recognition and continuing innovation, you're got nothing. It takes decades (generations!) to build a large successful company like Buck and Spyderco. Smaller ones can thrive, too, in niche markets -- Bradford, for instance.
 
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