Designer vs Makers

19-3ben said:
So, the guys at ESEE don’t field test their knives since they just design and then contract with Rowen for the build? I’m sure they’d be surprised to hear that they don’t know about their own product.
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Great example. And in the same vein, RYP was just a guy who wanted a certain knife design he couldn't find in the market, so had his design made by Rowen, and later LionSteel. He certainly didn't slave away in a small shop for years perfecting his design. DPX makes some really solid useful knives, for the most part. I can't see how Pelton doesn't fit the OP situation to a T (other than initial country of origin). Hell, Pelton was a journalist/marketing guy.
 
iacchus said:
Great example. And in the same vein, RYP was just a guy who wanted a certain knife design he couldn't find in the market, so had his design made by Rowen, and later LionSteel. He certainly didn't slave away in a small shop for years perfecting his design. DPX makes some really solid useful knives, for the most part. I can't see how Pelton doesn't fit the OP situation to a T (other than initial country of origin). Hell, Pelton was a journalist/marketing guy.
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Quite right. There are plenty of examples. Before TOPS started producing their own, they also contracted with Rowen to make their knives. And when the folks at Varusteleka designed the Skrama and JP lines, they contracted with Laurin Metalli to produce them. There are loads of examples. Hell, going back to the mid 20th century, Buck, Camillus and Schrade were well known for contracting with each other to produce their own knives. It has never been an issue for a designer to contract out for production, and I don't see a reason to make it one. I can't believe it's even a question.


Blues said:
19-3ben 19-3ben I think Sam was speaking in broad terms and not singling out a given maker. I know Jeff, (and the late Mike Perrin), pretty well and have spent a good deal of time with him in years past...and no question he knows his product...and he knows how to employ them.
Of course, Sam can speak for himself, and I am just offering my thought regarding his earlier comments.
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Maybe he was only talking about overseas makers, but he didn't specify. I am happy to have him chime in and more narrowly focus his comment, but as it stands, he's using an extremely broad paintbrush that includes everyone who contracts out the production of their knives.

Of course ESEE knows their product well. It's why I used it as an example and to highlight the silliness of the question.

Blues said:
While I have sold off my custom Bose knives...no Bose collector would feel threatened or that his custom Bose knives were somehow devalued by the presence of the Case offerings.
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And let's not forget the Winkler/Case collabs. It's not like Winkler doesn't know how to make a knife
 
19-3ben said:
And let's not forget the Winkler/Case collabs. It's not like Winkler doesn't know how to make a knife
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I recently sold a hand forged Winkler to a collector here...and it went for a pretty penny. If anything, collaborations can enhance a maker's popularity and recognition. Not in every case, I'm certain, but the good ones tend to be recognized...hopefully in time for them to benefit from it...or at least for their families.
 
19-3ben 19-3ben I made my point very, very clearly multiple times in this thread. I laid out very explicitly the type of "designer" I am talking about. That has nothing to do with ESEE.

Are you familiar with the genesis of their company? Before they even started using production companies to produce their knives? They did the very thing that I am talking about that makes a maker/designer qualified. There was massive levels of field testing and use and refinement before their products were brought to market through a production company. Much respect to them for putting in the work. I spoke with some of them at Blade about design, and their experience is obvious and hard earned.

If you have any questions about what they think, ask them. They know who I am and what I'm about.

Sam

19-3ben said:
So, the guys at ESEE don’t field test their knives since they just design and then contract with Rowen for the build? I’m sure they’d be surprised to hear that they don’t know about their own product.
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*Edited to add clarity. Typing is different than talking face to face.
 
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For the guys completely missing the point of the OP's question/statement, were you even at Blade this year and see what was on a lot of tables? A LOT of people, both consumers and people in the industry, were saying the same thing as the OP and what I have said.

If you were there and didn't have have a similar thought, that's entirely fine. But many experienced folks did. Everyone gets their own opinion, and I respect that principle.

Sam
 
Everyone knows that there is a glut of titanium frame lock flippers. Probably because of the proliferation of CNC machines. Makers can call them production, mid-tech, or custom, but makers can churn out many of these knives.

The last hurdle IMO was the integral. Scott Cook, Michael Raymond, and Peter Rassenti made these complicated knives. Now, with more advanced CNCs, clones of these makers' integrals are emanating from China (my problem is with their being clones, not that they are made in China).

As I've moved into customs, I like hand-made slip joints and liner locks, which tend to be one-of-a-kind. I'm willing to pay a premium for these. Ti frame lock flippers at 800 - 1500, not so much.
 
I think a good example of what I’m describing and concerned about would be the music industry. Through the seventies, eighties and nineties bands made their way through the music scene putting their time in perfecting their music and musicianship while creating a following leading to them getting noticed, signing to a label then becoming rock/pop stars etc. It was a bottom up path to earn the success. Now a days its a top down approach where music executives find a pretty/handsome face, write some music for them, auto tune their voice and blast it into your ear’s till you can’t not sing along. It’s sad but there’s not a kid out there now that can name a current great guitarist.

I just hope the knife industry isn’t heading in this direction where everything just becomes eye candy by a designer then produced by third party manufacturers regardless of where they’re made. Just seems inauthentic to me. I appreciate someone that puts the time in, fights through the struggle, puts their 10,000 hrs in and if fortunate enough becomes successful. I hope in 20 years kids will be able to still name great makers of their era.
 
mitchnola said:
I hope in 20 years kids will be able to still name great makers of their era.
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I mean, this ship has already sailed don’t you think? What percentage of Americans buy a hand made knife in their lifetime? Essentially almost none I would bet. Aside from internet friends, I don’t know anyone who could make a person who makes knives (ok, *maybe* Chris Reeve). We’re talking about a niche within a niche already
 
I use that exact same music industry situation to illustrate a number of different things in conversation. Good point. It's about producing a sellable product now, not necessarily quality product.

mitchnola said:
I think a good example of what I’m describing and concerned about would be the music industry. Through the seventies, eighties and nineties bands made their way through the music scene putting their time in perfecting their music and musicianship while creating a following leading to them getting noticed, signing to a label then becoming rock/pop stars etc. It was a bottom up path to earn the success. Now a days its a top down approach where music executives find a pretty/handsome face, write some music for them, auto tune their voice and blast it into your ear’s till you can’t not sing along. It’s sad but there’s not a kid out there now that can name a current great guitarist.

I just hope the knife industry isn’t heading in this direction where everything just becomes eye candy by a designer then produced by third party manufacturers regardless of where they’re made. Just seems inauthentic to me. I appreciate someone that puts the time in, fights through the struggle, puts their 10,000 hrs in and if fortunate enough becomes successful. I hope in 20 years kids will be able to still name great makers of their era.
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Sam Wilson said:
I use that exact same music industry situation to illustrate a number of different things in conversation. Good point. It's about producing a sellable product now, not necessarily quality product.
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Wouldn’t you say, though, that there are more quality knives being made right now than at any point in human history?
 
shane45-1911 said:
No.

5 years ago, a Pakistani knife was a rarity. Now they pump them out by the 100's of thousands.
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That’s not what I asked though. I’m talking about the ability for a consumer to buy a super high quality knife if they so choose. There are more makers and more models of excellent knives being made right now than ever before.

Maybe there’s more junk too, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a great time to be a knife enthusiast.
 
OP,

What are some example companies? I would imagine it takes a fair amount of business savvy and technical skill to pull off such a feat regardless. Not to mention invesment.
 
Yes I would, but I would also say there is more junk present now than probably any point in human history in the knife world. Junk that usually didn't make it market in decades past because knives were designed/sold to be used, not to just take pictures of on social media. Again, some of the sellers of these type knives told me this in conversation.

Proliferation of both good and bad design is not really the point though. The point is of this conversation was about people who are just designing knife like trinkets to sell to people. I happen to agree with the OP. Some people are not going to. That's fine by me.

I'll say it again though, the people disagreeing strongly must not have been at Blade this year. It was very different from Blade shows of years past. That is just a fact.

Sam

mak1277 said:
Wouldn’t you say, though, that there are more quality knives being made right now than at any point in human history?
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mak1277 said:
That’s not what I asked though.
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Sure it is. Re-read your post. "More" indicates you are comparing it to something. More than what? Junk knives? Again, the answer is "no". The ratio is waaaaaay more junk-to-quality thanks to Ebay and Pakistan.

If that's not what you meant, well - that's an entirely different thing.
 
shane45-1911 said:
Sure it is. Re-read your post. "More" indicates you are comparing it to something.

If that's not what you meant, well - that's an entirely different thing.
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I asked about the volume of good knives available to consumers. My “more” meant in comparison to the past, not in comparison to junk knives.
 
Sam Wilson said:
Proliferation of both good and bad design is not really the point though
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I was responding to your idea that there was less quality now than in the past, which I would reject as being totally inaccurate. Maybe as a % of the total you’re right, but there are more good knives available now than ever before
 
mak1277 said:
I mean, this ship has already sailed don’t you think? What percentage of Americans buy a hand made knife in their lifetime? Essentially almost none I would bet. Aside from internet friends, I don’t know anyone who could make a person who makes knives (ok, *maybe* Chris Reeve). We’re talking about a niche within a niche already
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Your missing the point. It’s not who buys a handmade knife, it’s not quality. Is the future going to be all knives mass produced by a few giant manufacturers that throw the designers name on it. Will there be no future CRK, Medford, LGeorge etc able to compete and survive.
 
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