Did the swiss create the ultimate pocket knife?

[pinnah]

Codger,

Any clues as to when the US-style camper first appeared?

Equal-end frame with bolsters (and bail). 4 blade. I've a sneaking suspicion that it grew out of the German and English emigrant knife makers in the US, as married to the equal-end frame (as distinct from the asymmetrical German style campers).

Anything you could add about the pre-SAK German camper/utility knives would be interesting too.

 

[Codger_64]

An interesting thread HERE in Levine's forum regarding the Swiss Army Knife and the American style camper knife.

... I was able to find a jpeg of an 1891 Patent filing for the Victorinox Soldier.
http://www.multi-tool.org/victorinox-historical-photos/victorinox-historical-knives ...

pinnah, you obviously are mis-interpreting the linked historical Swiss army knife drawing.
It does NOT show a maker's patent claim nor any corresponding Swiss (or other country's) patent office documentation.

The drawing does illustrate the Swiss Armed Forces' specifications for this particular knife pattern, based on different patterns, being supplied by a Solingen cutlery manufacturer, who finally received the first contract for supplying the Swiss Army with this 4 bladed pocket knife pattern.
Neither Victorinox nor any other Swiss maker ever claimed having developped this "Swiss Army Knife" pattern.

regards
Germania

 

[pinnah]

heh. good example of a lot of things, including not communicating well on-line.!!


Here's what I took away as the most salient help there (from BL):
"The modern round end 4 blade utility knife, aka scout knife, along with its 6 blade cousin, was a hybrid of the older multi-blade construction from Europe, with the American equal-end cattle knife.

The e-e cattle knife dates circa 1880s, a beefed up version of the senator pen knife of the 1820s.

The modern round end 4 blade utility knife, aka scout knife, appeared between 1900 and 1910. "

That suggests to me that the scout knife (and the demo knife) may have been influenced by the 1897 Officers knife. Or maybe not. It's sort of like trying to figure out which came first, the French Rando bike or British Club bike. Very similar designs that showed up at roughly the same time.

Regardless of when which came out, in my mind, I distinguish between the mid-spring Officer style SAK and the back-spring equal end BSA/camper style knife. Not sure that would pass muster in Levine's forum or not.

 

[Codger_64]

Kastor and other American makers and importers could not keep up with demand in our growing country. That was in part because most cutleries used the English methods, naturally so since many of the cutlers were trained in England themselves. Kastor and some others figured the solution was to use the German method wherein instead of an individual cutler building the parts and assembling, finishing the knife, the work was divided up into departments and the parts were presented t othe cutler ready for assembly, "cutlering" and finish. Even Henry Ford visited the factory in Camillus to see how he might improve his assembly lines.

So... these German workers brought with them not only their skills and methods, but also their familiarity with German (Austrian/Bavarian) patterns of frames and blades. So it was pretty natural to adapt utility blades to older American frame patterns. The equal end pocket knife became the "horseman's knife" became a "automobile" knife became a camp utility knife. When cans were invented and widespread a can opener blade followed. When crown caps on bottles were invented, the cap lifter blade was invented. When the Phillips head screw was invented the appropriate screwdriver blade was invented.

I note that the first Swiss army knife specification included blades made previously in Germany. They wrote their own specification but did not invent the blades.

 

[Amos Iron Wolf]

So it could be said that the Swiss created a specification that gave birth to a long line of very useful and task oriented pocket knifes that also carried various tools on them. I feel fairly confident you could call it a knife primarily as my understanding is that it was spec'd out as a "knife," on a pocket knife frame, with additional blades/tools specified to cover a variety of common field tasks. They didn't invent the knife, but shepherded it into being. Much like the U.S. Army didn't invent the 1911, but they set the specs for it, sent em out into the wild, and picked from the inventions that were submitted.

Ultimate? No. But they did bring about a line that makes it possible to find darned near the ideal model for someone who still thinks of it in terms of a knife with all the other useful goodies. As opposed to the mindset of a multi-tool that just happens to have a knife blade on it. How you think of these things, your perspective, is going to affect which line is going to appeal to you the most.

Kind of hard to not dig the various Swiss Army Knives and not dig the Camper/Demo knife types as well. But see. The key word in each is knife. We think of them as knives first and not multi-tools. A subtle, but key difference. The SAK and Campers are built and open like knives. The various multi-tools are by design built around a tool, generally pliers, and operate in a way different from what most folks think of as a knife. When you get right down to it a SAK/Camper pattern is a knife with tools added. A multi-tool is a tool with a knife blade added.

Ultimately, there is no ultimate. Just some darned versatile and excellent knives that fit the needs and wants of a very large percentage of folks who use them. But, they don't work for everyone. Unless everyone is perfectly served and none can ask for more, it can't be ultimate. Besides, what was ultimate in 1900 isn't in 2014.

 

[pinnah]

So... these German workers brought with them not only their skills and methods, but also their familiarity with German (Austrian/Bavarian) patterns of frames and blades. So it was pretty natural to adapt utility blades to older American frame patterns. The equal end pocket knife became the "horseman's knife" became a "automobile" knife became a camp utility knife. When cans were invented and widespread a can opener blade followed. When crown caps on bottles were invented, the cap lifter blade was invented. When the Phillips head screw was invented the appropriate screwdriver blade was invented.

Thank you for this. I see, in retrospect, this is what Bernard (and others) on that other threat were trying to convey but I wasn't picking up on. You've described the evolution nicely. Would be cool to see pictures of representatives lined up. I don't think I've seen the ref to the "horseman's knife" before. I've the "automobile" knife in an old catalog scan.

So it could be said that the Swiss created a specification that gave birth to a long line of very useful and task oriented pocket knifes that also carried various tools on them.

I think it is more accurate to say that the Swiss Army specification of the 1890 model was based on preexisting German and English models. Again, I think the thing Victorinox invented was the mid-spring construction used on the Officer (later, in 1897). I think.

Kind of hard to not dig the various Swiss Army Knives and not dig the Camper/Demo knife types as well. But see. The key word in each is knife. We think of them as knives first and not multi-tools. A subtle, but key difference. The SAK and Campers are built and open like knives.

I totally agree with this, which is why I carry a both a knife and a "vest pocket" sized combination tool. And just to be very clear, I'm not advocating larger (and off-topic) multi-tools in anyway.

At the same time, I find SAKs unweildly as knives as soon as they get more than 2 layers thick. The ergo are off and I end up getting gunk of all sorts in the all the little places. But I'm one of "the weird Opinel guys" (or Schrade lock back guys) who no longer carries his Ulster Camper either, for the same reason. In any event. I totally agree with about the blade issue but IMO, it's not an issue on the vest pocket/key ring tools.

 

[Codger_64]

Here is one variant of a horseman's knife, an old Wostenholm (web find). As with many names, this name refers more to it's use by the tools contained. Hoof pick, fleam, prick, leather punch.

 

[pinnah]

Here's a catalog scan from 1902 that shows a huge variety of Sheffield "Sportsmans" knives.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...s-amp-Ads-(Images-Only)?p=8398501#post8398501


And here's a scan of an 1886 Hibbard et al catalog. Note the "campaign" knife.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...s-amp-Ads-(Images-Only)?p=8399163#post8399163

More sporting knives from 1902. Wow. Quite a selection. Notice the metal scaled Army/Navy knife. Grand daddy to the demo knife?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...s-amp-Ads-(Images-Only)?p=8782911#post8782911


1900 Miner's knife that looks a lot like the German sportsman knifes. Also an equal end cattleman's knife.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...s-amp-Ads-(Images-Only)?p=8988715#post8988715


Codger... Is it your sense that combination knives of all sorts were widely available in all sorts of wild combinations prior to 1890 and that through the early 1900s there was a lot of experimenting and sorting out of different models? That is, is it more correct to think of what emerged as Victorinox and the US-style campers as 2 branches of a larger tree of combination knives (that has no clear and obvious starting point)?

 

[Codger_64]

Pretty much. As people were mostly riding horses and driving horse-drawn wagons and carriages, knives reflected that by having implements useful to those people (picks, punches, pricks, fleams). When automobiles and electronics became popular and widespread, knife implements reflected those needs. When city people began "outing" for recreation, and BSA was formed, knives with blades specific to those activities appeared. Many (not all) of the blde shapes date back to the late 1700's, as we see on the great exposition knives surviving from that time. Likewise the exposition knives of the late 1800's. And of course as I mentioned, the invention of tinned food and crown bottle caps. Frame patterns also followed fashion, sometimes regionally, but also by the utility a pattern presented in strength and ability to store, pivot and use the various appendages and their required springs.

Patterns and blade combinations which sold well continued to be made while others with little market interest fell by the wayside. If a pattern/combo sold well, every cutlery that could produced a variant.

By the way, the knife in the c. 1886 HSB catalog is a champaign knife, sometimes called a bar, bartenders' or waiters' knife.

 

[Amos Iron Wolf]

Pinnah, great finds on the catalogs. Appreciate you posting them. I really like the motorist knives in the second sheet. From a time when "motoring" was an adventure in itself.

The simple fact is that pocket knife design was purpose driven by specific needs. Those requirements change and the patterns evolve, adapt, and change. Some even go extinct or nearly so simply because there is no need for them or become few in number and are not seen outside of specialty shops and functions.

When you look at how SAKs alone have evolved to fit modern needs you see things like pens and eve USB thumb drives become part of the offerings. A USB drive, a small, thin, sharp blade for opening mail and cutting string, a pair of scissors, and a nail file/small screwdriver, in a small package is probably more useful for way many more people than saws, hoof picks, and the like.

When you really look at the various patterns and their evolution in all the traditional pattern knives it makes you kind of wonder how far we have devolved in terms of being able to function when the lights go out. Aw the relentless march of humanity. What is new is old and what was once old becomes new again.

 

[Codger_64]

When to power goes out here I have to post on Bladeforums by oil lamp. Country boys can survive.

 

[sodak]

When to power goes out here I have to post on Bladeforums by oil lamp. Country boys can survive.

One of his very best songs. And so true!

 

[Amos Iron Wolf]

When to power goes out here I have to post on Bladeforums by oil lamp. Country boys can survive.

I'll probably just send a fox.

But... with the screwdriver tip on a SAK or Camper type you can press cuneiform or rune characters into clay tablets and send those along. After a long night of foxing and setting posts in tablets you can use the scissors to trim the wick on your lamp. See, fits right in.

 

[leghog]

Nice! Yours?

No...

 

[Codger_64]

Codger,

Any clues as to when the US-style camper first appeared?

Challenge accepted. At the moment the earliest primary source I have found is a 1910 J. M. Warren & Co. Hardware catalog. Perhaps someone has an earlier source, but here is that ad cut from 1910. I'll keep looking.

 

[pinnah]

The simple fact is that pocket knife design was purpose driven by specific needs. Those requirements change and the patterns evolve, adapt, and change. Some even go extinct or nearly so simply because there is no need for them or become few in number and are not seen outside of specialty shops and functions.

When you look at how SAKs alone have evolved to fit modern needs you see things like pens and eve USB thumb drives become part of the offerings. A USB drive, a small, thin, sharp blade for opening mail and cutting string, a pair of scissors, and a nail file/small screwdriver, in a small package is probably more useful for way many more people than saws, hoof picks, and the like.

I think this is where Victorinox won the battle for dominance in the combination/utility knife market.

In looking over their catalogs (SAK Wiki has a nice archive), it looks like they never took their foot out of the gas and have always kept evolving, both in terms of frame styles and in terms of tool selection. About the only consistent thing I can see is a commitment to multiple blades and Inox.

In contrast, it appears (to my still learning eyes) that the period of experimentation among US makers was all pre-WWII. After WWII, utility/combination knives seem to settle down to just a handful of designs like the TL-29 and 4 blade Boy Scout knife. Exceptions, obviously, but not a ton and definitely not like Victorinox. Maybe the commitment to the concept was just more ingrained at Victorinox, while combination knives were something of a side-show for American makers? Speculation on my part.

Still, interesting (to me, anyway) to be reminded there was a period of time in the US when there was a huge variety of US made (and British and German) combination/utility knives of all sorts.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

I think this is where Victorinox won the battle for dominance in the combination/utility knife market.

In looking over their catalogs (SAK Wiki has a nice archive), it looks like they never took their foot out of the gas and have always kept evolving, both in terms of frame styles and in terms of tool selection. About the only consistent thing I can see is a commitment to multiple blades and Inox.

In contrast, it appears (to my still learning eyes) that the period of experimentation among US makers was all pre-WWII. After WWII, utility/combination knives seem to settle down to just a handful of designs like the TL-29 and 4 blade Boy Scout knife. Exceptions, obviously, but not a ton and definitely not like Victorinox. Maybe the commitment to the concept was just more ingrained at Victorinox, while combination knives were something of a side-show for American makers? Speculation on my part.

Still, interesting (to me, anyway) to be reminded there was a period of time in the US when there was a huge variety of US made (and British and German) combination/utility knives of all sorts.

I think Victorinox did an awesome job with branding as the little red plastic knife is universally recognized. They also evolved with manufacturing.... something that I do not think other cutlers really did. Those two things really helped make them who they are.

 

[Hammer67]

...They also evolved with manufacturing.... something that I do not think other cutlers really did.

And this is precisely why we're not just looking back fondly on them, as we have with so many other brands that went by the wayside, like it or not.

Btw, thanks to Pinnah and Codger for posting all the vintage info - very cool to look at all the variations. :thumbup:

 

[pinnah]

Challenge accepted. At the moment the earliest primary source I have found is a 1910 J. M. Warren & Co. Hardware catalog. Perhaps someone has an earlier source, but here is that ad cut from 1910. I'll keep looking.

This is fantastic Codger.

I know from researching vintage bikes that finding definitive "firsts" is practically impossible. I like your wording, "earliest primary source I have found". It would be interesting if this blade combination appeared in the US first as a "boy scout" knife or as a more generic "camper".


An interesting 1903 Elsener catalog here:
http://www.multi-tool.org/vintage-swiss-army-knives

The Model 205 shown as an Officers/Sportman's knife. Equal-end. Bare head. 6 blades.

And another. Notice the one in the bottom left. Here is the 4 blade combination, but the screw driver lacks the cap lifter. Bare head on one end. Not an equal end. Clip point. This model persists into 1940 from another source as a the Model 200. Sold then as a farmer's knife.

The bottle cap (aka crown cork) came out in 1892, it would seem. Design lag?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_cork

 

[Codger_64]

This is fantastic Codger.

I know from researching vintage bikes that finding definitive "firsts" is practically impossible. I like your wording, "earliest primary source I have found". It would be interesting if this blade combination appeared in the US first as a "boy scout" knife or as a more generic "camper".

The first BSA design spec on the official knife (there were actually two, the other being a two blade jack) was 1911. They didn't pull the features and frame out of midair. It has to have come from somewhere and it is doubtful that the jobber I posted was the originator since most jobbers did not produce their own knives, but selected from catalogs or samples of makers. Since NYKC was the first maker licensed by BSA it is possible that the four blade utility camper knife was being produced by them already and submitted for approval. However we are looking for proof, not conjecture of the origin of the pattern, prior to the 1911 BSA specification, adoption and licensing in 1911. So far the 1910 ad cut is it. Was it a NYKC unofficial knife? It had been struck thru in the merchant's copy of the jobber's catalog I posted from. Why? Conjecture? Maybe a 1911 agreement by NYKC to not sell the pattern without official markings (and thus a residual paid under license to BSA)?

Text from the 1911 BSA Manual:

* _Knives_:
No. 1, Price $1.00.
A Stag handle, brass lining, german silver bolsters and shield. Large
polished cutting blade, screw driver, can-opener and leather boring
tool (U. S. Pat. 6-10-02.)


Number 2, Price 50 cents.
Genuine ebony handle, brass lining, german silver bolsters and shield.
Large cutting blade can be opened without using the fingernail.
Shackle for hanging to belt.

A cursory search reveals USPTO Pat. US 701878 A - Pocket-knife leather-punch. published Jun 10, 1902, issued to "0. L. HARRISON, OF COLETA, ILLINOIS."