Did the swiss create the ultimate pocket knife?

[SwiftDream]

No they missed the mark when it comes to the Ultimate pocket knife.

Sure they are some of the most economical and most precise folders on the market with nary a loose, wiggly blade and every single one of them has amazing snap. You can choose an amazing array of tool combinations to go with several sized blades. So they have come real close.

The glaring problem comes when using one for anything but soft foods or cutting threads. My SAK with convexed, polished edges will hold an edge for maybe two swipes through seasoned pine. That is unacceptable for a wilderness knife in my opinion. They have a lousy heat treat or maybe an unacceptable steel for what they advertize at times. But they cut a sandwich in half just fine.

On the other hand you take a very inexpensive peasant knife like an Opinel or a Mora and they hold an edge so much longer it's just no contest.

So for around town I guess the SAK is fine but in a wilderness knife one looks for light weight, all around use that does hold an edge for an acceptable time or it could cost you. A knife is the supreme food processor in the world but that is not the only thing one looks for in wilderness travel. It must be a great wood carver too in case you find yourself needing that and a knife that can't hold an edge in seasoned pine for more than a few seconds is not going to be carried by experienced travelers for very long unless they also carry are more capable knife.

That said, I do carry the SAK Classic every day, good scissors when sharpened properly, excellent little nail file and the older models had a nice nail cleaner instead of the current tiny screwdriver. I like the toothpick too, very handy. But I hardly ever use the blade and I don't consider it my knife in any way. It is just part of a system. To be the Ultimate, every SAK needs a new blade steel or heat treat at the very least. That would make them dependable. Right now they are not dependable except in very mild conditions.

 

[Amos Iron Wolf]

I got my first SAK, a Champ, out of the Force Exchange at North Camp, Sinai, Egypt, when I was with the MFO (Multi-National Force & Observers). I bought it because I was bored and had already bought the few models of Old Timers they had. It was an epiphany of sorts.

My experience prior had been with cheap, Chinese knockoffs of them. My only other camper had been a Boy Scout knife I won when I tied for second place selling the most tickets for the big Boy Scout Jamboree to be held at Cincinnati Gardens, but that was back in the 60s and I never appreciated it's full utility at the time. Sadly, our Scout Master was no Mr. Van, or even close. So when I got that SAK in hand I was amazed at how well made it was, and even more, all the tools really worked like they were supposed to!

One of my first real "projects" with it involved playing a joke on the secretary to the Chief of Personnel Services. She was Canadian and a real sweetheart who fortunately had a great sense of humor. The CPS was full bull British Colonel (also a good guy). Somewhere I'd read about this little trick where you cut some thin, but stiff rod, bend it to a U shape and bend a notch on each end. You take a washer and loop a rubber band at the 3 o'clock and one at the 9 o'clock positions. You loop the other end of each band over the bent notches. Then you tape the whole thing in a few places to a piece of paper. (You have to make it to fit and envelope when the paper is folded over it.) Once assembled you use the washer to twist up the rubber bands nice and tight. You fold the paper over and hold tight so it doesn't spin loose and slide the "trap" into an envelope.

I didn't have any tools, but my SAK Champ on me. (With the MFO insignia on it. I forgot to mention that.) So I found a stiff, wire coat hanger and a light washer. I had an office a few doors down so rubber bands were no problem. I used the metal saw to cut the coat hanger which it did quite well and quickly. I used the pliers to bend everything into shape. After which I set it all up to fit in a #10 envelope and using the typewriter and a label I made a nice, sort of official label and placed it on Marnie's (the secretary) desk while in getting some coffee and she had stepped out.

She came back in and saw the envelope. Picking it up she said something about how this looks official. A few of us just "happened" to be there "getting" coffee at the time. The dear girl quickly opened the envelope and slid the tri-folded paper out and as it opened enough to free up the washer that washer went to spinning against the paper and made a loud buzzing sound. She shrieked and dropped the offending bit of correspondence on her desk while jumping back a few feet.

As I said, both she and the COL were good sports and everyone was laughing, including them. Good thing too. I was just a SGT and that office controlled the coffee pot!

Later, back in CONUS I would use that knife for all kinds of things from car repair to whatever. I only retired that Champ after a tour in Alaska when I bought myself a SAK Swisschamp just prior to heading back to the lower 48. I used most of the tools on it at various points and not necessarily as intended. I never removed a hook or scaled a fish with that blade, but I used the hook remover to shove cordage through things.

As noted earlier, I also tried a SOG Multi-Tool that I got in Alaska. I eventually dumped it and went completely back to the Swisschamp. Even with all the tools on it, the Swisschamp rode lighter and better on the belt and just did more for me in a more convenient package. Just pull out the blade you needed, use it, close it back up.

I should also mention that the Swisschamp was my favorite for shaving down and final shaping of walking sticks. I held up fine for most of a stick only giving up a little towards the end. A few quick licks on a fine Arkansas stone or more often just a set of crock sticks and it was back into action.

I think a SAK with the saw on it, a Mora, and a basic tomahawk, makes a really handy bit of kit.

 

[Amos Iron Wolf]

Btw, there is no ultimate pocket knife. The SAK in whatever guise fits you best is however one heck of a fine pocket companion.

Check out JDavis882's YouTube video called Victorinox Tinker "Rosta Frei" Rope Cutting/Edge Retention Test where he does rope cutting and edge retention testing with a SAK Tinker. He was quite surprised with his findings and he sharpens and test cuts with a lot of modern steels. He carries a Chris Reeve Sebenza to give an idea of where he comes from.

 

[300Six]

No they missed the mark when it comes to the Ultimate pocket knife.

Sure they are some of the most economical and most precise folders on the market with nary a loose, wiggly blade and every single one of them has amazing snap. You can choose an amazing array of tool combinations to go with several sized blades. So they have come real close.

The glaring problem comes when using one for anything but soft foods or cutting threads. My SAK with convexed, polished edges will hold an edge for maybe two swipes through seasoned pine. That is unacceptable for a wilderness knife in my opinion. They have a lousy heat treat or maybe an unacceptable steel for what they advertize at times. But they cut a sandwich in half just fine.

On the other hand you take a very inexpensive peasant knife like an Opinel or a Mora and they hold an edge so much longer it's just no contest.

So for around town I guess the SAK is fine but in a wilderness knife one looks for light weight, all around use that does hold an edge for an acceptable time or it could cost you. A knife is the supreme food processor in the world but that is not the only thing one looks for in wilderness travel. It must be a great wood carver too in case you find yourself needing that and a knife that can't hold an edge in seasoned pine for more than a few seconds is not going to be carried by experienced travelers for very long unless they also carry are more capable knife.

That said, I do carry the SAK Classic every day, good scissors when sharpened properly, excellent little nail file and the older models had a nice nail cleaner instead of the current tiny screwdriver. I like the toothpick too, very handy. But I hardly ever use the blade and I don't consider it my knife in any way. It is just part of a system. To be the Ultimate, every SAK needs a new blade steel or heat treat at the very least. That would make them dependable. Right now they are not dependable except in very mild conditions.

Nice that you have an Opinel to help slice through your breakfast pancakes and to make marshmallow sticks on camping trips but it won't drill holes, lever joints, open cans, tighten screws, lift bottle caps, etc etc etc. Not even 1/4 qualified to be a 'pocket tool' by my standards. Knife OK, but SAKs have already two; one for ordinary work and one to keep razor sharp for delicate functions. Could be you're a union tin banger, electrician or plumber and dissatisfied with how long any blade stays sharp while deburring/reaming steel but in my case the metal on a SAK is plenty durable for anything and everything I've ever done. 40 years ago I used to rub the blades over a stone once a week but have since slowed down to once a month.

 

[leghog]

To be the Ultimate, every SAK needs a new blade steel or heat treat at the very least. That would make them dependable. Right now they are not dependable except in very mild conditions.

Don't know about that. I carried a SAK on my belt and used it in jungles and mountains across Southeast Asia and the South Pacific. That SAK was given to me in Cambodia. Wouldn't call what we experienced throughout the Pacific "very mild conditions". That SAK proved to be plenty dependable for my needs. I know my Opinel probably wouldn't have survived the environment.

 

[SwiftDream]

You two are taking my words out of context.

I never said an Opinel was the ultimate pocket knife. I said;

“On the other hand you take a very inexpensive peasant knife like an Opinel or a Mora and they hold an edge so much longer it's just no contest.“

They don't hold an edge as well as Most other pocket knives I have used. Your milage my vary but I use mine for backpacking and got in 73 nights last year, not a record for me but enough. A knife is not the only tool I take but I do expect my knife to hold an edge for a reasonable time. I'm glad you like them that much and they work for you but my experience is just different.

 

[SAK Guy]

I used a Champion just like this one on numerous (15+) backpacking trips in the late 70's and then took it to Europe for backpacking/travel for 3 months the summer of '79....never did have to sharpen it even though it was used daily those 3 months.

Sure, my Mora/Opinel combo are better on wood but not nearly as versatile.....I don't buy a SAK for it's edge holding ability anyway.

There's room for both in my life and my pack. :thumbup:

BTW, Used my first Pioneer cut up 10-12 heavy water heater boxes one afternoon back in '83 and it was still amazingly sharp afterwards...I was, well, a SAK GUY from that point on.....

 

[knarfeng]

Disagreements are OK. But keep the discussion civil.

That means discussing how you use the knife and how it performed for you rather than how you think someone else is using it.

 

[kamagong]

Nice that you have an Opinel to help slice through your breakfast pancakes and to make marshmallow sticks on camping trips but it won't drill holes, lever joints, open cans, tighten screws, lift bottle caps, etc etc etc. Not even 1/4 qualified to be a 'pocket tool' by my standards.

Not really an issue because the query involved the "ultimate pocket knife," not the ultimate pocket tool.

 

[Codger_64]

No. They popularized a modern rendition of old patterns, creating different models with different combinations of blades for different purposes and interests. But they were beat to the puch many years prior by cutleries in Britain and Germany. Here is one small knife in my collection, a gent's mother of pearl butterfly action scissor knife with manicure blades.

Here is another with 20 assorted blades for a variety of tasks. It wqas an actual knife for the market in the U.S. and not an exposition demonstration.

This style of multifunction knife is pretty much forgotten on today's market and some of the specialty blades are obsolete, like the Pres-to-Lite keys on old automobile knives. These are, however, the ancestors of the now popular relatively modern Swiss Army Knife.

 

[mnblade]

I don't know if the Swiss created the ultimate pocket knife, but I do know that if someone ruled I could only own knives from a single manufacturer the rest of my life, I'd choose Victorinox without hesitation. I have a Rambler and a big locking Adventurer, and a few in between, including the Tourist that was in my pocket during the births of all three kids. Won't be selling that one any time soon!

-- Mark

 

[SAK Guy]

The Victorinox Soldier Knife was the first original SAK, dating from 1891. The most recognizable modern incarnation of the Soldier Knife these days is the "Soldier 1961".

Wenger and Vic versions:

 

[NMpops]

Obviously the Swiss did not create the ultimate pocket knife, no one has yet. Otherwise we would all just buy the ultimate one and have no need to buy another. What fun would that be. Myself, I always have a SAK of some sort on me and then either a large or medium Case Stockman. If I can only carry one, it's a SAK.
I own and have carried Buck 110/112, Puma, Spyderco & Benchmade but mostly they collect dust now. Traditionals for me and SAKs are as traditional as Case, Schrade or any other slippy.

 

[Hammer67]

"Ultimate" is clearly a subjective term - I don't think the OP meant for it to be taken too seriously.

Is the original SAK well over a century old? Yes. So clearly it is quite traditional.

Is the SAK the biggest selling folding knife on the planet? Definitely, by far, and it has been for some time.

Has it proven to offer more far more versatility than most pocket knives that only offer knife blades (leatherman-like multi-tools excluded)? A matter of opinion I suppose, but if we went beyond knife geeks and asked the general public, I'm willing to bet the vast majority would say "yes."

So "ultimate" or not, that's a pretty impressive roster of accomplishments that not many (if any) pocket knife competitors can lay claim to. But as this thread clearly indicates, there will never be 100% agreement, regardless. I love accumulating fancy pocket knives, but if I could only have one in my pocket for the rest of time, it would be an ALOX SAK.

 

[BJE]

If it weren't for the basic tools in the slimmer SAKs like tinkers, Spartans, and soldiers, then I would hardly carry them, there are other blades I like better, but many a time have the modest tools helped me out when I needed them.
So now I am a conflicted man, I dislike carrying things I don't need in daily life, preferring simplicity to being prepared, but at the same time I do not like being caught without the basic tools I need to complete unexpected tasks while away from my tool box.

So I typically carry my favorite pocket knife, my opinel no.8, on work days since I am always within walking distance of the proper tools needed to complete my job, and carry the soldier or spartan on trips away from home or work where I may need a screwdriver or corkscrew.
Though exceptions to the above do apply. I am at work now but slipped the soldier in my pocket this morning for some unknown reason, it's just what I wanted to carry today.
It helped me cut up some grapefruit for breakfast already.

 

[SAK Guy]

EDC SAK rotation group.

 

[pinnah]

I used a Champion just like this one on numerous (15+) backpacking trips in the late 70's and then took it to Europe for backpacking/travel for 3 months the summer of '79....never did have to sharpen it even though it was used daily those 3 months.

Sure, my Mora/Opinel combo are better on wood but not nearly as versatile.....I don't buy a SAK for it's edge holding ability anyway.

There's room for both in my life and my pack. :thumbup:

BTW, Used my first Pioneer cut up 10-12 heavy water heater boxes one afternoon back in '83 and it was still amazingly sharp afterwards...I was, well, a SAK GUY from that point on.....

I definitely agree with the thrust of the bolded part. But it led me to a different conclusion.

What follows is definitely in the according to my personal taste and preferences and obviously, just to over emphasize this point... People should carry what makes them happiest period. And if that's an SAK, even though some don't care for them, well there's room for all of on the same porch I hope.

So, about that Champion. Wowza. That's a bit of knife there. As in well over 5 ounces of knife.

Or is it a combination tool? My friend Ludwig tells me that whether it's a knife or a combination tool depends entirely on what I'm doing with it. He's smart like that. So, here's what I find when looking at it from both directions.

While I cut my teeth (and thumb, 5 stitches when I was 8) on Boy Scout knives, I got a Buck 110 when I was in high school. I've wandered around a lot knife wise and have pretty much figured out that I generally prefer single blade (and locking) knives over any multi-blade knife. This, for me, is pretty much true all the way across the board and regardless of size. Single bladed knives feel more natural in my hand, I loose myself in the work faster and, frankly, their simplicity and single purposeness appeals to me. To me, using a multiple bladed knife is always a compromise. Question is, is it worth it?

Now, looking at the big ol' Champion as a combination tool, I'm reminded of something that an old timer pointed out to me when I was deep into gram counting bike touring. Cylists are big into combination tools of a different kind and carrying the most functionality with the least weight is big deal for bike tourers. The old guy pointed out that separate tools were often LIGHTER than combination tools!

The issue is that the material used to hold them together adds up. To make matters worse, you almost always end up with less functional tools.

For EDC use, I find I use the following tools regularly. Scissors, nail file, standard screw driver, Phillips screw driver, cap lifer, small (eyeglass capable) standard screwdriver (useful for small screws on electronics) and a small pen blade. I get that in a tiny combination tool that looks remarkably similar to the mother of pearl wonder that Codger posted (tell us more!).

So, here's the tale of the weight weenie ounce counter:
Opinel N9: 2 oz.
Keyring sized multi-tool: 1.8 oz.
Grand total: 3.8 oz.

Now, if I look for a camper style/SAK style combo knife with this set of tools, I'm in the 4 oz range, give or take. And if I look at SAKs that offer this set of tools with a main blade that is comparable, the weight jumps up into the 6+ oz range.

I find that by splitting off the main cutting blade and the combo-tool functionality into 2 separate carries (one in each front pocket), I get better functionality for less (or dead on comparable) weight.

So my Micra is a traditional design? Who knew?


EDC Pair by Pinnah, on Flickr

 

[SAK Guy]

At 20 years old and carrying a 70 lbs pack almost everyday touring Europe, that 5 oz made little difference riding in my pocket but a big difference when I needed it.

I'm well over 50, disabled and nursing a little Rheumatoid Arthritis....that 5 oz is still worth the versatility it brings (as are those fishing weight worthy ALOX models) IMHO.

I kinda like the heavy ones anyway! Here's a few in my stable (never mind that lightweight Solo on the left, he wandered in for the pic).

Those Micras are cool...gave one to my wife years ago and she really likes it! :thumbup:

 

[kamagong]

Thanks for that Pinnah. I have a couple of SAKs, but I rarely use the knife blades. No point, when I have a much better cutting tool in my pocket. I do keep them around for the tools, in my pack or briefcase. If there is a better, lighter option without the superfluous blade I'll have to check it out.

The only thing the Micra is missing is an awl. I like to use them as scrapers. Might use that small pen as a scraper instead. That'll be hard though, I can't stand a dull knife and cringe when I see a knife used for non-knife tasks.

- Christian

 

[pinnah]

Here is one small knife in my collection, a gent's mother of pearl butterfly action scissor knife with manicure blades.

Codger, this picture still has my brain reeling. Could you tell us more about it?

Those redacted are cool...gave one to my wife years ago and she really likes it! :thumbup:

I think multi-function combo knives are cool, in general, which is why there is no question that we restrict our attention most narrowly on traditional slip-joint designs, the SAK/Camper is, indeed, more cool than other slip joints.

I have a couple of SAKs, but I rarely use the knife blades. No point, when I have a much better cutting tool in my pocket.

I've come to regard knife blades on combo tools as being like a rooster in the hen house. Actually that's too harsh. The more I whittle, the more I like to have a second, smaller pen blade available to me. I tend to reprofile mine to a more pronounced pen shape.

The only thing the redacted is missing is an awl. I like to use them as scrapers.

On my redacted, I use the standard screwdriver blade as a scraper. Or, for smaller spots, the tip of the caplifter/small driver. Both can be sharpened for better scraping. I have, only once in my life, used an awl on leather (use leather punches in my shop) and 99.9% of the time I use the awl on my BSA, it's as a scraper, as you suggest. This is huge YMMV territory though, as I can imagine routines where a proper awl is more useful.