Different Steel for Busse knives?

lets take it easy on vassili, huh?

he's been around a while and is unquestionably a busse combat supporter, unless i have missed something entirely.
 
I was applauding the entertaining comment about stainless, not any harshness towards Vassili. As I said, he has different ideas from Jerry on knife performance and is certainly entitled.
 
b-square said:
I was applauding the entertaining comment about stainless, not any harshness towards Vassili. As I said, he has different ideas from Jerry on knife performance and is certainly entitled.
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it wasnt directed at you.

he didnt ask a bad question, imo, though it may seem odd to most of us.

i think he's gotten his answer.
 
MORIMOTOM said:
lets take it easy on vassili, huh?

he's been around a while and is unquestionably a busse combat supporter, unless i have missed something entirely.
Click to expand...

I think that past flame wars have a way of staying fresh in the collective mind, so the question of "why not add more steels to the repertoire" becomes "other steels are better then infi" without particular cause.


if you look at all of the steel choices from the three companies, s30v and d2 are the only two that are outside of the high meleability/shock resistant type steels. s30v was used in a folder, something that wasn't meant to be able to pry with (at all, even though the warrantee still stood on the model), and the d2 was heat treated specifically for strength at high hardness. I have no idea what swamp rats d2 was like compared to other heat treats of d2.

BUT - they were using d2 because they were able to buy a huge stock pile from jerry at a low price. they did the best they could with it in order to make it more capable of taking abuse. I'm not sure that they would have chosen to use it otherwise. all of their other fixed blade steels have been closer to the shock resistant variety.

I don't think there is a place for zdp in any of the companies. if their going to use a steel, it needs to be able to take gross levels of abuse. and I mean ridiculous levels of abuse. and it has to be cheap if swamp rat or scrap yard is going to use it.

unless you can find something more chip resistant at a higher hardness then infi, busse is not going to use it.
 
ah. I didn't even realize that swamp rat made their own version of the warden in sr-101.

ya, swamp rat wont use zdp becuase it's to expensive, and too easy to break. busse won't use it becuase its too easy to break.
 
For a smaller blade like the Game Warden, how would a hardness of 62-63 RC affect edge holding and toughness? Jerry, any thoughts/experiments in this area?

Thanks
Luke
 
Last Visible Canary said:
ah. I didn't even realize that swamp rat made their own version of the warden in sr-101.

ya, swamp rat wont use zdp becuase it's to expensive, and too easy to break. busse won't use it becuase its too easy to break.
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Indeed. The Swamp Warden is a dandy little knife.
 
I am actually glad Noz posted as I'd like to bring up his test, since he did so much hard work on it and as I have stated before in his thread, he does an excellent test, but he has trouble nderstanding his own data.


nozh2002 said:
Here results table (number of cuts, INFI, 420HC, ATS-34, Friction Forged D2, Progressive tempered by Lauri ThyssenKrupp made UHB17VA):

Cut INFI 420 ATS FF LAU
000 040 030 040 020 020
001 060 050 060 030 020
002 070 050 070 040 030
003 070 060 070 040 030
004 080 050 070 040 040
005 080 060 070 040 040
006 080 060 070 040 050
007 --- 070 080 040 050
008 080 080 080 040 050
009 --- 070 080 050 050
010 070 070 080 040 050
012 080 070 080 050 050
015 080 080 090 050 050
020 080 070 090 050 050
025 080 080 090 050 050
030 090 080 090 050 060
035 090 080 090 050 060
040 090 090 090 060 060
045 090 070 090 060 060
050 080 080 090 060 060
060 090 070 090 060 060
070 --- 080 090 060 060
080 100 080 090 070 070
090 110 080 --- 070 070
100 110 080 090 070 070
110 110 080 090 070 070
120 110 090 090 080 070
130 110 090 090 070 070
140 100 080 090 080 070
150 110 090 100 090 070
160 110 100 100 100 080
170 120 110 100 090 080
180 120 110 100 080 080
190 120 110 100 080 080
200 130 100 100 090 080
210 120 110 100 090 080
220 130 110 110 080 080
230 110 --- 110 090 080
240 110 130 110 090 080
250 110 130 110 100 080
260 110 130 110 100 090
270 110 140 110 100 090
280 110 130 110 100 090
300 110 140 110 090 090
320 110 140 120 100 090
340 120 150 120 100 100
360 120 140 120 110 100
380 120 140 120 110 100
400 120 140 130 110 100
420 110 140 130 110 100
440 110 140 130 110 100
460 110 150 130 110 100
480 110 160 130 110 100
500 110 170 130 110 100
520 120 170 130 110 110
540 120 170 130 110 110
560 120 180 140 110 110
580 120 190 140 110 110
600 120 200 140 110 110
650 130 230 140 110
700 130 260 140 120
750 130 --- 150 120
800 130 --- 150 120


Knives used:
Busse Game Warden - INFI 58-60HRC
Cold Steel ODA (Taiwan) - 420HC sub zero quenched 57HRC
Buck Strider Solution - ATS-34 by Paul Bos 59-60HRC
DiamondBlade The Summit - Friction Forged D2 (factory edge) 65-68HRC
Nozh2002 The Shrimp - blade from Laury (Finland) Progressive tempered ThyssenKrupp made UHB17VA 63HRC

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...

INFI and ATS start off as the dullest, so these knives do not even start off in the same sharpness.

By 300 custs things are closing up and 420 is loosing ground to all the other steels(Unlike Noz said in his this quote which I deleted.)

By 800 cuts INFI is only 10 grams behind FFD2 but it started 30 grams behind, hmmm, no fan boy talk here, but it seems to me that it is quite obvious what performed the best when you actually analyze the data.

Of course this is just one aspect. We haven't even talked about chopping and going into other materials where INFI would eat up the competition.

Jerry please do not use any inferior steels.
 
here is his complete post with the part about how 420HC is actually better:rolleyes: of course that was early on but most people have ADD here and read only the first paragraph and believe it as I have seen them do on other postings.


nozh2002 said:
I found the way to represent results here. As you may see so far for 220 cuts of manila rope 420HC subzero quenched by Taiwanese supplier of Cold Steel demonstrates better results then INFI. This is big surprise to me be because again I choose this steels based on bias that INFI is the best and 420 HC is just entry level. Testing shows that it was wrong assumption and 420HC not only as good as INFI at least on 1/2" manila rope cutting with 30 degree edge, but even better!

Kind of eye opening experience!

It is not finished yet, and I expect 420HC to show not so good performance on biger numbers on cuts - we'll see. However I expecting same from the beginning...

Here results table (number of cuts, INFI, 420HC, ATS-34, Friction Forged D2, Progressive tempered by Lauri ThyssenKrupp made UHB17VA):

Cut INFI 420 ATS FF LAU
000 040 030 040 020 020
001 060 050 060 030 020
002 070 050 070 040 030
003 070 060 070 040 030
004 080 050 070 040 040
005 080 060 070 040 040
006 080 060 070 040 050
007 --- 070 080 040 050
008 080 080 080 040 050
009 --- 070 080 050 050
010 070 070 080 040 050
012 080 070 080 050 050
015 080 080 090 050 050
020 080 070 090 050 050
025 080 080 090 050 050
030 090 080 090 050 060
035 090 080 090 050 060
040 090 090 090 060 060
045 090 070 090 060 060
050 080 080 090 060 060
060 090 070 090 060 060
070 --- 080 090 060 060
080 100 080 090 070 070
090 110 080 --- 070 070
100 110 080 090 070 070
110 110 080 090 070 070
120 110 090 090 080 070
130 110 090 090 070 070
140 100 080 090 080 070
150 110 090 100 090 070
160 110 100 100 100 080
170 120 110 100 090 080
180 120 110 100 080 080
190 120 110 100 080 080
200 130 100 100 090 080
210 120 110 100 090 080
220 130 110 110 080 080
230 110 --- 110 090 080
240 110 130 110 090 080
250 110 130 110 100 080
260 110 130 110 100 090
270 110 140 110 100 090
280 110 130 110 100 090
300 110 140 110 090 090
320 110 140 120 100 090
340 120 150 120 100 100
360 120 140 120 110 100
380 120 140 120 110 100
400 120 140 130 110 100
420 110 140 130 110 100
440 110 140 130 110 100
460 110 150 130 110 100
480 110 160 130 110 100
500 110 170 130 110 100
520 120 170 130 110 110
540 120 170 130 110 110
560 120 180 140 110 110
580 120 190 140 110 110
600 120 200 140 110 110
650 130 230 140 110
700 130 260 140 120
750 130 --- 150 120
800 130 --- 150 120

Detailed test results you may check on that test page I made:
http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila-Rope-Testing.html

Knives used:
Busse Game Warden - INFI 58-60HRC
Cold Steel ODA (Taiwan) - 420HC sub zero quenched 57HRC
Buck Strider Solution - ATS-34 by Paul Bos 59-60HRC
DiamondBlade The Summit - Friction Forged D2 (factory edge) 65-68HRC
Nozh2002 The Shrimp - blade from Laury (Finland) Progressive tempered ThyssenKrupp made UHB17VA 63HRC

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...
 
heck, I want Busse to start using 420HC and cut the price in half. That way, the value of all my INFI knives skyrockets. Bring it!!!!
 
I have a massive custom battle knife ordered in CPM 3V and it, jmo, is a great steel but I'd rather have INFI because it's much more rust resistant.
Too bad, Jerry doesn't sell INFI blanks to custom knife makers.


Sag.
 
I'm not sure why Jerry would want any steel other than INFI. Busse isn't in the business of making surgical blades or anything such that would actually require highest possible sharpness with highest possible edge retention in such uses, at the cost of losing toughness. I don't know of any steel that I would rather have for a field use knife than INFI. :)
 
Elen said:
I'm not sure why Jerry would want any steel other than INFI. Busse isn't in the business of making surgical blades or anything such that would actually require highest possible sharpness with highest possible edge retention in such uses, at the cost of losing toughness. I don't know of any steel that I would rather have for a field use knife than INFI. :)
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true, very true, and as i also do my research i find that busse spelled backwards is "essub" now taking that a little bit further i find that "essub" is viking for the ships "Mead Tender" now we're starting to get somewhere.

eric the red prolly was the first sailer to discover the northeast usa.

recent digs in the ohio area (black swamps) have unearthed old scandinavian coins from century's ago.

anyway to sum this infi thing up,

1] jerry's dna indicates this whole busse strain comes from a bunch of party animals (baserkers).

2] infi must be tempered in some sort of alcohol

3] could amy be involved?


.
 
randucci said:
My question also, in all your experiences with Busse knives made from INFI and knives made from the other steels you mentioned, what is INFI lacking that you would want a busse model made from another steel?
Click to expand...


I'm still waiting for him to answer my question...................


.
 
idahoskunk said:


1] jerry's dna indicates this whole busse strain comes from a bunch of party animals (baserkers).

2] infi must be tempered in some sort of alcohol

.
Click to expand...

Why am I distinctly unsurprised? :D :thumbup:

I'm thinking it's some kind of Scotch. At least for the Scoth Dispensers. :D

For Randucci, I'm thinking Vasili was hoping for better edge retention in non-chopping tasks, at least looking at the list of substitute steels he gave. None of those certainly have the toughness of INFI. I don't see the point in that, though, since INFI is like Busse's signature, and these are hard use knives before anything else, and they must be hella tough. I really don't think stuff like ZDP-189 delivers on that front.
 
LFree said:
For a smaller blade like the Game Warden, how would a hardness of 62-63 RC affect edge holding and toughness? Jerry, any thoughts/experiments in this area?

Thanks
Luke
Click to expand...

infi was lowered from 60-62rc to 58-60rc. I would only assume that 62-63 started getting to the upper edge of the steels ability to maintain toughness, so it was lowered to ensure toughness without losing to much edge holding/hardness.

for a game warden to be "extremely hard to break by hand" it would need to be as tough as possible.
 
randucci said:
I'm still waiting for him to answer my question...................


.
Click to expand...

Well, I gave that link, but if you insist I say that I like high edge retention on high sharpness as well as edge retention till 600 manila rope cuts which Lauri PT blade demonstrates (and Friction Forged D2 almost as well) - it keeps better sharpness then INFI all the way from one cut to 600 cuts and I guess It will continue performs better till 800 (I think I finish this in few days).

I think you may find more in the link I provided - please, have a look, before asking other questins which may be already answered there:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=718

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
Well, I gave that link, but if you insist I say that I like high edge retention on high sharpness as well as edge retention till 600 manila rope cuts which Lauri PT blade demonstrates (and Friction Forged D2 almost as well) - it keeps better sharpness then INFI all the way from one cut to 600 cuts and I guess It will continue performs better till 800 (I think I finish this in few days).

I think you may find more in the link I provided - please, have a look, before asking other questins which may be already answered there:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=718

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...

I didn't ask for test results, I ask specifically what you thought INFI lacked as the steel of choice for Busse knives. Your link above just takes me to the "Knives Reviews & Testing" forum, did you expect me to search every post to find your opinion? Your the one that came here, so don't redirect us somewhere else.

.
 
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