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Different Steel for Busse knives?
- Thread starter nozh2002
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nozh2002
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Cobalt
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you're not going to get one because there isn't one.
Look at his test and he still says that FFD2 keeps it's edge to 800. This is rediculous and he can't interpret his own results:
From Cut 5, which is probably the true original sharpness of each steel, INFI has a sharpness of 80 and FFD2 has a sharpness of 40. There is a considerable difference in the starting sharpness of both steels. Yet, when you follow the continued cutting you will note that FFD2 requires 80 more grams to cut than it did at the start. Whereas, INFI required 50 more grams of force to cut than it did in the beginning. INFI actually closed the gap in cutting force from 40 grams difference to FF to 10 grams difference to FF.
THE DATA IS SELF EVIDENT
So Tim, to answer your question, NOTHING
Last Visible Canary
actively parsing hurf durf
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nozh wants higher edge retention and abrasion resistance. I'm not looking at the numbers presented (to determine wether infi is actually better then the steels presented or not), I'm looking at it from the perspective of the original question "why not use a different steel in the game wardens to give collectors/users more variety?"
if swamp rat or scrap yard could find a way to make a steel (m2, zdp, whatever) chip resistent at high hardness, and able to take large amounts of lateral stress in a comparable fashion to what they have done with sr101, or infi itself - it might happen. but only if they can get the steel cheap enough.
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First off, Vassily is not a troll. He seems to be a good guy, and he has an obvious interest in Busse knives, and I've enjoyed everything I've seen him post. I have no reason to attack Vassily. He is a HOG, is he not? Let's respect him accordingly.
But one thing I noticed when I followed the linkage to his test page, is that in his edge-retention testing, the Busse blade he was using appears to be a bruiser warden. The bruiser warden is much thicker than any of the other knives used in the tests, with a much different edge angle I would assume. Would this not affect the testing in some way? Wouldn't the only way to produce truly accurate results would be to use blades with identical geometry?
Frankly, I'm suprised that the Bruiser warden did as well as it did, being the sharpened railroad spike that it is. I have one, and I like it, but it would never occur to me to use it for sharpness testing and expect it to be a representative sample of INFI in that respect.
Also, an important point to make is that edge retention is not Busse's primary goal. Infi is not intended to have the best edge retention in the world. To parrot the well-known INFI information, INFI is designed to be the best balance of edge retention, toughness and corrosion resistance. There are steels that beat INFI in each of these areas, but none that are close to being the best in all three.
I have knives that seem to hold an edge better than INFI (S30V, IMO). I have knives that resist corrosion better (H1). (I have not found anything tougher) But if you try abusive chopping with an S30V blade, it will chip. And H1 blades neither hold great edges or are exceptionally tough. An INFI blade gives you the best balance of durability under harsh conditions available. If you want a knife with higher performance in a given direction, to the detriment of another, there are lots of options out there. It seems that Vassily values edge retention more than he needs toughness. In which case, he might like ZDP-189 or another "super-steel". A ZDP warden would be very cool, but there's very little chance that that will ever happen. However, there are plenty of knifemakers out there that will make you pretty much anything you want, out of any steel you want. If you draw up a warden-like design, for example, and ask somebody to make it out of steel-X, you can get that, and pretty easily. Just not from Busse.
But one thing I noticed when I followed the linkage to his test page, is that in his edge-retention testing, the Busse blade he was using appears to be a bruiser warden. The bruiser warden is much thicker than any of the other knives used in the tests, with a much different edge angle I would assume. Would this not affect the testing in some way? Wouldn't the only way to produce truly accurate results would be to use blades with identical geometry?
Frankly, I'm suprised that the Bruiser warden did as well as it did, being the sharpened railroad spike that it is. I have one, and I like it, but it would never occur to me to use it for sharpness testing and expect it to be a representative sample of INFI in that respect.
Also, an important point to make is that edge retention is not Busse's primary goal. Infi is not intended to have the best edge retention in the world. To parrot the well-known INFI information, INFI is designed to be the best balance of edge retention, toughness and corrosion resistance. There are steels that beat INFI in each of these areas, but none that are close to being the best in all three.
I have knives that seem to hold an edge better than INFI (S30V, IMO). I have knives that resist corrosion better (H1). (I have not found anything tougher) But if you try abusive chopping with an S30V blade, it will chip. And H1 blades neither hold great edges or are exceptionally tough. An INFI blade gives you the best balance of durability under harsh conditions available. If you want a knife with higher performance in a given direction, to the detriment of another, there are lots of options out there. It seems that Vassily values edge retention more than he needs toughness. In which case, he might like ZDP-189 or another "super-steel". A ZDP warden would be very cool, but there's very little chance that that will ever happen. However, there are plenty of knifemakers out there that will make you pretty much anything you want, out of any steel you want. If you draw up a warden-like design, for example, and ask somebody to make it out of steel-X, you can get that, and pretty easily. Just not from Busse.
Your whole post was well spoken and I agree. :thumbup: A warden like custom would be a good idea for someone who values edge retention over all else. For a custom, they could (I think "should", but tastes differ) even take away the choil that is unnecessary in such a small knife. Busse has the warranty to consider. I would like to see the guy who will give a ZDP-189 knife lifetime warranty against any and all unintentional major damage. I bet that if you get a ZDP "warden" from someone who isn't Busse, hammer it into a log and kick it, breaking the blade, the warranty isn't gonna cover it...
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I bet that if you get a ZDP "warden" from someone who isn't Busse, hammer it into a log and kick it, breaking the blade, the warranty isn't gonna cover it...
And there's the rub. I however, did happen to hammer my thin OJ warden into a log just yesterday (didn't kick it, though). The log was made out of some ungodly hard wood, and I did some hard chopping with the warden, too. In the process, I discovered that the warden is completely useless as a chopper. Even with a very thin, extremely sharp edge. But I gave it a good workout, and after bringing it inside and cleaning it up, it's as good as new, with zero damage to the edge or tip. And it still shaves. :thumbup:
Would I have done this with any of my other knives? Hell no. That's how you ruin a lesser knife.
Honestly, I don't think I can compare my warden to any other knife, because I've done all kinds of crazy stuff with it that I would never consider doing with any other knife. I literally go out of my way to abuse it at every chance I can. And it laughs at my feeble efforts to destroy it. That, I think, is the point of having an INFI knife.
Have I mentioned how much I love my OJ warden? In the past five minutes? I always have it with me, so I can beat on it whenever I want. I wish I got a chance to wail on my bigger knives more often, but they're never with me when I'm out and about.
Well, there you go again. I couldn't agree more! :thumbup:
The kicking the warden in the log story is a true one, though. I did that to one of my wardens. The knife didn't break nor even chip, but the log did crack nicely and lose a big chunk of wood. If that warden had been ZDP-189, it would've been torn in two, I have no doubt in my mind about that. That's the idea with Busses as far as I understand. They may not cut like scalpels, but they're still going to be around to cut things when the fifth scalpel is lying in the dumpster in a thousand fragments.
TurnerIII
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Got to have a High Priestess to make all the magic work
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What am I misisng here - why is everyone is throwing unwavering respect towards this guy even tho he's called out Jerry and his steel, and talks to other well respect members like this?
I haven't been around the forums long enough to have witnessed Vasili change water to wine, so whats the deal?
I haven't been around the forums long enough to have witnessed Vasili change water to wine, so whats the deal?
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Well spoken, thank you.
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My guess is that Vassili is having a bad day? The post you quoted above struck me as particularly out of character for him. If he keeps it up, perhaps the tone towards him will change. I think there may be a language barrier issue at play, that he took offense with something that seems innocuous to the rest of us. He is Russian, after all. Just because somebody says something out of line with Busse forum dogma doesn't mean we all have to pile on him. If Jerry takes issue with anything being said here, he is more than capable of laying down the law.
nozh2002
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I absolutely agree with this.
But for some types of knives this balance may be better shifted to edge retention side, while for other types it better be more on toughness side. Plus, it may be matter of personal preferences.
So we have variety of blade sizes, we have variety of handle thickness, we have variety of colors and materials, but always with INFI only.
As an "edge retentionist" I think Game Warden only benefit from more edge resistance being small knife. I have to admit I used one as a chisel once, so toughness is also may be needed for all around knife, but I think to me will be best solution to have INFI Game Warden and Lauri PT GameWarden as well. Or may be Jerry talk to Juha Perttula, doctor in technology at Tampere University in Finland to learn how to do Progressive tempering for INFI so we may have INFI PT Game Warden?
I do not think some experimental runs with different steels will damage Busse business in any way.
Thanks, Vassili.
P.S. Thread are pretty thin and affects only very edge, so edge thickness does not matter, of course it require more forse to cut. I actually used Scunk Warden for test - here 50 cuts (and I made 800 total for each knife tested so 16 times from what shown in the picture):
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Got to have a High Priestess to make all the magic work
All Hail Amy! The Hight Preistess of INFI! Smoter of nay sayers and giver of all that is INFI!!
I wanna see the costume!
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He's not an official Hog as far as I see, anyone got more info?
btw, who's Vassily?
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He's not an official Hog as far as I see, anyone got more info?
btw, who's Vassily?
Vassilly= Nozh2002. (edit- oh yes. I knew you know that. Irony is lost on me) I thought he was one of the online inductees, but I could be mistaken (I frequently am
). I see him around here enough that I assumed he had been part of that round. I'll double check.
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Its a spelling snafu bro, its Vassili
leatherHog, spreading sunshine wherever I go......
Lets lighten the mood here, Nozh is just trying to rattle our cages, and he's darn good at it!
leatherHog, spreading sunshine wherever I go......
Lets lighten the mood here, Nozh is just trying to rattle our cages, and he's darn good at it!
Cobalt
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I think it is you who should change your tone and maybe you should learn to read and interpret you own data
oh and let me repeat my last comment in case you did not see it.
From Cut 5, which is probably the true original sharpness of each steel, INFI has a sharpness of 80 and FFD2 has a sharpness of 40. There is a considerable difference in the starting sharpness of both steels. Yet, when you follow the continued cutting you will note that FFD2 requires 80 more grams to cut than it did at the start. Whereas, INFI required 50 more grams of force to cut than it did in the beginning. INFI actually closed the gap in cutting force from 40 grams difference to FF to 10 grams difference to FF.