Disappointed by ZT 560

[bodog]

Your favorite knife is designed by Ken Onion. Ken Onion uses IKBS lol... So the designer of your favorite knife thinks that titanium races are fine but you still think it's a design flaw?

Nonsense. Ford makes my favorite truck and I think going to aluminum bodies is retarded. Since I think aluminum bodies on a work truck is retarded, I'm supposed to hate ford now? And since ford makes an otherwise great truck I'm not supposed to criticize something I think is freaking retarded?

 

[kniferbro]

Nonsense. Ford makes my favorite truck and I think going to aluminum bodies is retarded. Since I think aluminum bodies on a work truck is retarded, I'm supposed to hate ford now? And since ford makes an otherwise great truck I'm not supposed to criticize something I think is freaking retarded?

Yeah when you say it that way it does sound stupid. But, designer of favorite knife + one of the most respected makers in general + tons of experience doesn't lend a little clout to the fact that it's not a design flaw? You can not like something and it can not be a design flaw at the same time.

 

[Tachead01]

Well since you have all this schooling and knowledge, why not use it constructively. Rather than saying that their engineering is Shoddy, why not give them a call and discuss your ideas with them, that way you aren't pissing the rest of us off with your remarks. Have a good day tachead, and please consider that there are other ways to handle your ideas.

Good idea. I suspect it is more a case of economics though. Sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention. I just didn't want to overlook the possible flaws in the design. As other have said, maybe in actual use the wear is acceptable anyway, only time and use will tell. I myself dislike the design however.

I think it is important to discuss the possible flaws in designs(with any brand), as well as the good things, so that people know all the facts going in. I myself often use threads like this to help with purchasing decisions and definitely want to hear the good and bad before I purchase. It is an unfortunate side effect that some get offended when any bad is said about their/one of their favorite brand/brands.

 

[bodog]

Yeah when you say it that way it does sound stupid. But, designer of favorite knife + one of the most respected makers in general + tons of experience doesn't lend a little clout to the fact that it's not a design flaw? You can not like something and it can not be a design flaw at the same time.

I don't know, and I don't really care that much, to be honest. I like having more control over my blade opening than flippers with bearings allow. My personal preference. However, if I was going to use bearings in a knife I designed I'd probably throw some kind of hardened steel washers between the soft titanium and the small, really hard ceramic or steel ball bearings with an even smaller surface contact. Or maybe harden the titanium or something. That only makes sense if you want your product to last with some real use. I'm not an engineer or scientist and I have no loyalty to a company that doesn't care about me for anything more than what I can pull out of my wallet so what I think doesn't matter to anyone.

If brandon whatever thinks it's retarded, it's probably because to HIM, it's retarded. Maybe I'm retarded but I agree with him. To YOU it's fine and you'd rather save on the final price and there's not much chance of wearing out freaking titanium so the practice is acceptable. That's also fine.

My wife doesn't work and is pretty lazy, but she's hot. I can't stand it (the lazy part, not the hot part). You, on the other hand, might be absolutely ok with it.

My dogs are ugly, they bark a lot, but they are freaking great at biting people who come into my yard unannounced. I love em. If you were my neighbor, you'd probably hate them, and probably me too for having them.

It's all about perspective and where you're standing at any given time.

 

[bodog]

Good idea. I suspect it is more a case of economics though. Sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention. I just didn't want to overlook the possible flaws in the design. As other have said, maybe in actual use the wear is acceptable anyway, only time and use will tell. I myself dislike the design however.

I think it is important to discuss the possible flaws in designs(with any brand), as well as the good things, so that people know all the facts going in. I myself often use threads like this to help with purchasing decisions and definitely want to hear the good and bad before I purchase. It is an unfortunate side effect that some get offended when any bad is said about their/one of their favorite brand/brands.

KAI fans are freaking rabid, man. Gotta learn to live with it or find another forum to frequent. I myself have been slapped down plenty for showing some fault or another with various ZTs, even though the folding knife I've personally owned that I like best was, in fact, a ZT flipper on bearings. The 0600 was a beauty, I can't believe I traded it off. I still kick myself for it. But it wasn't a work knife. It was a showoff knife. Most people don't give a shit about knives so I was stuck with a beautiful knife that wasn't made for work that only I gave two shits about. What good is a showoff knife if no one cares? So I traded it for 3 work knives. I came up short on the deal. Live and learn.

And what's also funny is that out of the several fixed blade knives I've owned, the 0180 ranks near the top. But I still get slapped hard by KAI fans and the mods here for mentioning anything that might be wrong with the KAI company. That company is untouchable here. There may be something behind the scenes or not. Regardless, this is not my house. If I cannot stop finding some kind of fault with KAI, then I'm welcome to not return. That's how it is. Like it or leave it.

 

[brandoak]

YUP! if he uses the vice technique to force bearings into making makeshift races into titanium scales or liners...and I dont agree with him eating tuna either! lol

Your favorite knife is designed by Ken Onion. Ken Onion uses IKBS lol... So the designer of your favorite knife thinks that titanium races are fine but you still think it's a design flaw?

 

[brandoak]

Perfect! but know matter how many time I say the same thing ......smh

Good idea. I suspect it is more a case of economics though. Sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention. I just didn't want to overlook the possible flaws in the design. As other have said, maybe in actual use the wear is acceptable anyway, only time and use will tell. I myself dislike the design however.

I think it is important to discuss the possible flaws in designs(with any brand), as well as the good things, so that people know all the facts going in. I myself often use threads like this to help with purchasing decisions and definitely want to hear the good and bad before I purchase. It is an unfortunate side effect that some get offended when any bad is said about their/one of their favorite brand/brands.

 

[brandoak]

+100% but its bladeforums not praise KAI forum

KAI fans are freaking rabid, man. Gotta learn to live with it or find another forum to frequent. I myself have been slapped down plenty for showing some fault or another with various ZTs, even though the folding knife I've personally owned that I like best was, in fact, a ZT flipper on bearings. The 0600 was a beauty, I can't believe I traded it off. I still kick myself for it. But it wasn't a work knife. It was a showoff knife. Most people don't give a shit about knives so I was stuck with a beautiful knife that wasn't made for work that only I gave two shits about. What good is a showoff knife if no one cares? So I traded it for 3 work knives. I came up short on the deal. Live and learn.

And what's also funny is that out of the several fixed blade knives I've owned, the 0180 ranks near the top. But I still get slapped hard by KAI fans and the mods here for mentioning anything that might be wrong with the KAI company. That company is untouchable here. There may be something behind the scenes or not. Regardless, this is not my house. If I cannot stop finding some kind of fault with KAI, then I'm welcome to not return. That's how it is. Like it or leave it.

 

[brandoak]

If the blade breaks, is it just exposing new and sharper metal to cut with? lol (my new moto) lol

 

[bodog]

+100% but its bladeforums not praise KAI forum

Common sense won't get you far if it's against the rules. Remember when your dad set a rule and you thought it was retarded, unfair, demoralizing, patronizing,or whatever other term you could muster for it? It may very well have been retarded, unfair, demoralizing, or patronizing, but your dad had one response: my house my rules. If you don't like it, get out.

Well, the same thing applies here. You can dislike it all day but that doesn't change anything. You want to play under this roof, learn what's acceptable and what's not. Getting into with KAI's retardedly rabid fan base will get you marked, quick. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. All the praise can be sung for KAI products but tread very, very carefully when criticizing them. That's an unwritten rule. Feel free to argue that with your buddies. Feel free to vent about it at work. Doing it here will get you messed up quick. Them's the politics here. Accept it or dont.

Oh, and don't bash Chris Reeve or Rick Hinderer knives either. Pretty much everyone else is fair game, especially Cold Steel, Spyderco, and Andre de Villiers. You can say whatever you want about those guys.

 

[brandoak]

SHHHHHHHH! you cant have an opinion that is different...
...

I don't know, and I don't really care that much, to be honest. I like having more control over my blade opening than flippers with bearings allow. My personal preference. However, if I was going to use bearings in a knife I designed I'd probably throw some kind of hardened steel washers between the soft titanium and the small, really hard ceramic or steel ball bearings with an even smaller surface contact. Or maybe harden the titanium or something. That only makes sense if you want your product to last with some real use. I'm not an engineer or scientist and I have no loyalty to a company that doesn't care about me for anything more than what I can pull out of my wallet so what I think doesn't matter to anyone.

If brandon whatever thinks it's retarded, it's probably because to HIM, it's retarded. Maybe I'm retarded but I agree with him. To YOU it's fine and you'd rather save on the final price and there's not much chance of wearing out freaking titanium so the practice is acceptable. That's also fine.

My wife doesn't work and is pretty lazy, but she's hot. I can't stand it (the lazy part, not the hot part). You, on the other hand, might be absolutely ok with it.

My dogs are ugly, they bark a lot, but they are freaking great at biting people who come into my yard unannounced. I love em. If you were my neighbor, you'd probably hate them, and probably me too for having them.

It's all about perspective and where you're standing at any given time.

 

[kershawguy]

KAI fans are freaking rabid, man. Gotta learn to live with it or find another forum to frequent. I myself have been slapped down plenty for showing some fault or another with various ZTs, even though the folding knife I've personally owned that I like best was, in fact, a ZT flipper on bearings. The 0600 was a beauty, I can't believe I traded it off. I still kick myself for it. But it wasn't a work knife. It was a showoff knife. Most people don't give a shit about knives so I was stuck with a beautiful knife that wasn't made for work that only I gave two shits about. What good is a showoff knife if no one cares? So I traded it for 3 work knives. I came up short on the deal. Live and learn.

Bodog, I agree that it is ok to discuss things we think may be wrong with a knife or a design, but don't you think that we could try and do it constructively rather than hurling an insult at the maker. I believe it is Ok to use a little tact rather than say something you know will cause a problem. If people just don't care about others , then I guess you would be correct in saying we need to find another forum to frequent. Now I know that sometimes even when tact is used it still gets ugly, not sure what to think of that. I know lots of good knife people that will not frequent this forum because of the harshness. I am probably one of the few that really believes in treating your Neighbor as yourself. If your best friend built a knife and I said "his engineering was shoddy" or " hey what about if he tried this, would that be better" wouldn't one statement offend you and the other stimulate discussion.

 

[kershawguy]

Common sense won't get you far if it's against the rules. Remember when your dad set a rule and you thought it was retarded, unfair, demoralizing, patronizing,or whatever other term you could muster for it? It may very well have been retarded, unfair, demoralizing, or patronizing, but your dad had one response: my house my rules. If you don't like it, get out.

Well, the same thing applies here. You can dislike it all day but that doesn't change anything. You want to play under this roof, learn what's acceptable and what's not. Getting into with KAI's retardedly rabid fan base will get you marked, quick. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. All the praise can be sung for KAI products but tread very, very carefully when criticizing them. That's an unwritten rule. Feel free to argue that with your buddies. Feel free to vent about it at work. Doing it here will get you messed up quick. Them's the politics here. Accept it or dont.

There is no Kai Forum , they left. Those are not the politics here.

 

[fsatsil]

I don't think it's only the Kai fanboys that are the problem it's all fanboys in general.

 

[bodog]

Bodog, I agree that it is ok to discuss things we think may be wrong with a knife or a design, but don't you think that we could try and do it constructively rather than hurling an insult at the maker. I believe it is Ok to use a little tact rather than say something you know will cause a problem. If people just don't care about others , then I guess you would be correct in saying we need to find another forum to frequent. Now I know that sometimes even when tact is used it still gets ugly, not sure what to think of that. I know lots of good knife people that will not frequent this forum because of the harshness. I am probably one of the few that really believes in treating your Neighbor as yourself. If your best friend built a knife and I said "his engineering was shoddy" or " hey what about if he tried this, would that be better" wouldn't one statement offend you and the other stimulate discussion.

I agree with everything you just said except what makes you think KAI is your best friend? Honestly? If you had to sell all of your knives to pay for surgery for your kid, would KAI organize a fundraiser and give you a good knife to use until you got back on your feet? If you were having roubles with your marriage, could you call a KAI customer service rep and talk about your problems? They have great customer service, undoubtedly, but they're just a company out to make money from us knife nuts. Nothing more. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but they are just a business.

 

[brandoak]

Thanks bodog, now im cleaning coffee off my keyboard

I agree with everything you just said except what makes you think KAI is your best friend? Honestly? If you had to sell all of your knives to pay for surgery for your kid, would KAI organize a fundraiser and give you a good knife to use until you got back on your feet? If you were having roubles with your marriage, could you call a KAI customer service rep and talk about your problems? They have great customer service, undoubtedly, but they're just a company out to make money from us knife nuts. Nothing more. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but they are just a business.

 

[benchwarmer380]

I think it is important to discuss the possible flaws in designs(with any brand), as well as the good things, so that people know all the facts going in. I myself often use threads like this to help with purchasing decisions and definitely want to hear the good and bad before I purchase. It is an unfortunate side effect that some get offended when any bad is said about their/one of their favorite brand/brands.

Discussion is great. We on BladeForums discuss everything pertaining to blades, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Reread the first post.

Did that really come off as an open invitation to discussion?

This thread would have gotten completely different responses if it had been posed something like this.

"Hey guys, just got a new ZT 560. The bearing system is kind of interesting but I'm afraid that the steel bearings may indent or gouge into the TI frame. Anyone heard of this? Is this going to be a problem in the future?"

But that wasn't the case. OP took a look at the knife and came to the conclusion that this will be a catastrophic design flaw and expressed that as such. The one person who has seen this actually happen says that his knife works just fine. But I guess that doesn't matter.

Tact can be a wonderful thing and on the internet semantics are everything.

 

[benchwarmer380]

I agree with everything you just said except what makes you think KAI is your best friend? Honestly? If you had to sell all of your knives to pay for surgery for your kid, would KAI organize a fundraiser and give you a good knife to use until you got back on your feet? If you were having roubles with your marriage, could you call a KAI customer service rep and talk about your problems? They have great customer service, undoubtedly, but they're just a company out to make money from us knife nuts. Nothing more. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but they are just a business.

What? Where did you read that?

All kershawguy was saying with his last sentence is that how you say things matter. One way can be construed as a put down or offensive, the other is a way can offer constructive criticism and be open for discussion.

Tact.

 

[kershawguy]

I agree with everything you just said except what makes you think KAI is your best friend? Honestly? If you had to sell all of your knives to pay for surgery for your kid, would KAI organize a fundraiser and give you a good knife to use until you got back on your feet? If you were having roubles with your marriage, could you call a KAI customer service rep and talk about your problems? They have great customer service, undoubtedly, but they're just a company out to make money from us knife nuts. Nothing more. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but they are just a business.

The answer to some of those questions would be yes, there are people there that I call my friends, my fault I know. I have been dealing with them for many years and I have seen what they do and how zealous they are about the product they sell. The point is how we say things about a company or anyone for that matter. We can be nice and still get our points made. We don't have to agree on anything, but I think we should remain civil and try not to insult people. I am sure that some just don't care.

 

[bodog]

The answer to some of those questions would be yes, there are people there that I call my friends, my fault I know. I have been dealing with them for many years and I have seen what they do and how zealous they are about the product they sell. The point is how we say things about a company or anyone for that matter. We can be nice and still get our points made. We don't have to agree on anything, but I think we should remain civil and try not to insult people. I am sure that some just don't care.

We can definitely agree on that but it should go the same way in reverse. If your buddy said something that is pretty neutral but could be perceived as being dickheaded, you'd give him the benefit of doubt that he only meant to be helpful. Seems like most want it one way, speak softly about KAI and their products, but not in reverse, speak softly about fellow forum members and their views.

Being a member of this forum I'd think it'd be more important to protect and defend fellow forumites than to defend a company that supposedly has no ties to the forum. After all, it's the forum members who make the forum, not companies that don't even have an overt presence here.

Imagine being on a pirate ship and you notice a flaw with a sword you've been given. The sword was made by someone who isn't on the ship, has no interest in the ship, and by someone who only wanted to make money from whoever buys the swords. Well, you notice a design flaw, or at least what you perceive to be a design flaw. You mention it trying to be helpful and figure out how it should be better. Instead of you fellow ship mates listening and understanding so that they, too, can have better swords, they gang up on you and threaten to make you walk the plank because they have more loyalty to a disinterested company than to you. Would you feel that mentality was justified? Probably not. You'd probably feel pretty defensive.

I mention the pirate thing because it's some kind of theme here.