Disgusted with Boker ads

Advertise knives as the tools they are...not the weopons some would like to make them out to be. I find the Boker ads to be in poor taste, and the Buck ad just made me feel sick. I never would have expected anything like that from Buck. Let's show some common sense in advertising, please.

Paul
 
Razor, I agree 100% that this ad by Boker is in very bad taste. I have already emailed my displeasure to Boker USA and am waiting to see if they will respond to my questions regarding this ad and how it is possible that they thought that a lot of people that read this ad would not take exception to it. I will let you know if they get back to me.

What in h e double hockey sticks were these guys thinking?
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Keith

AKTI Member #A001338
 
I agree about the Boker ads. They have been doing it for quite some time.
About the Buck ad. There was a long discussion about this on the Buck forum. I believe the intent of their ad was NOT to make Bob build it by force. I think they meant that since you brought the right tool for the job, that Bob should do the labor. I think Buck was surprised at the reactions to this ad and doubt you'll see it for long. They are an extremely responsible company. That is why they don't get involved with the converted Buck autos, even though there is such a huge demand for them and alot of money to be made. And it was Buck that spent quite alot of money fighting stupid knife laws in California and getting them changed.

Dave
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by mnblade:
When I'm pissed at a company or organization or elected official, I write them a letter and say so. At the same time, I'll often jot off a note telling a company or organization or elected official that I admire what they're doing and appreciate it. Speak up!</font>
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Gee, you mean I'm NOT the only one in the world who does this?
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I spent about 30 years in the advertising business. Junior copywriter to agency President. The problem is that the creatives who populate most agencies these days are the video game generation - who believe that style supersedes substance. Product research? What's that? Benefit driven creative? Eh? What's more important - winning yourself another award distributed by your peers, or creating measurable results for your client? A pregnant woman will read every word of a 30,000 word full page newspaper ad about babies and baby care - no matter how "creative" or "uncreative" that ad is. And if you want my views on humor in advertising, check the relevant section of my website.

Rant off.

Holger
AKTI Member No. A001324
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www.cockroachfarm.com

 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Razoredj:
Am I overreacting?</font>
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Yes. Next question?

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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley

iktomi
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rockspyder:
Yes. Next question?

Seconded.

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Then I stand corrected. Given the number of posters who agreed with me, it looks like you'll need to scold all of them, as well.

-Razor


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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.
 
Stating your dislike for an ad is not overreacting at all. You, along with anyone else has that right. Obviously rockspider and Brian disagree with this. At no point did you go overboard in presenting your point and even if I were to disagree with you, which I don't, I would not state that you had overreacted.

I guess some people think it is all right to produce such brainless advertising. I, for one, do not. In my view, ads like this can do nothing but harm the knife industry and the pebble brained morons that came up with the ad should all be trained on how to do their jobs properly. The people that run Boker should get a brain as well. They are the ones that have the final say as to whether the ads will run. You would think they would know better. A useless bunch of bean counters in my opinion.

There, now that was an example of overreacting. See the difference?
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Keith

AKTI Member #A001338

[This message has been edited by Keith Montgomery (edited 04-11-2001).]
 
I was looking through some old magazines and saw the Junglee ad with the guy in a suit pulling the so-called Special Forces knife from a harness and I thought, this is the kind of stuff that will hurt the knife industry if companies are not careful with some of their ads. Also, I remember looking through a Combat Knives magazine (put out by Guns & Ammo) and in the contents page, there is a guy holding an Ontario Bowie, looking really stupid (cross-eyed) looking like he was ready to stab someone. While the guy in the picture looks like a dork, these again, are the things that will end up hurting the knife industry. I don't mind funny ads and I always dismiss the dumb ones, but there are people out there who will jump at the chance to pass anti-knife legislation, when they see this stuff.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Keith Montgomery:
The people that run Boker should get a brain as well. They are the ones that have the final say as to whether the ads will run.

</font>
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Absolutely correct, Keith. Maybe Boker should even fire their current agency and hire a small, hungry shop with a knife knut as the Creative Director. Nawwww...it'll never happen.
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Holger :c{{{&lt;
AKTI Member No: A001324
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www.cockroachfarm.com
 
One thing that it is easy to overlook, is as knifeknuts, we don't see a clipped knife in a pocket as an immediate danger. Well it depends a little... right? But when I see a knife I think, cool, what model etc. That is on a day to day basis and NOT when it is being used in a BAD way. It pisses me right off when I see some young punk waving a pocket knife about and showing off, gives us all a bad name. However a sheeple sees any knife in a bad way more often than not. They see the knife, ask themselves why a person needs a knife when they don't and go straight to the " Warning Will Robinson DANGER DANGER" mode. This overeaction and perception is magnified by ads that even allow you to see a knife in a macho or dangerous way.

Ask yourself a simple and very brutal question.

When you were out and about WITHOUT a knife for whatever reason? Was it:
1. Because it felt inconveinient if you might possibly need to cut something?

Or
2. I felt vulnrable being without a knife that I cannot use as a weapon effectivly anyway?

Me, I feel both at the same time, vulnrable and inconvienienced. I don't carry for 'protection' as many people I know think I do, or do I? I have never had to cut another with one of my knives and use them all the time for small tasks and in work. But I do feel naked without a knife. Strange and more than a little worrying for me. How about you?

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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
If you saw this ad in Highlites for Children, or the Ladies Home Journal, I could see questioning it's appropriateness. But in a knife publication, you're already addressing a demographic that has an expressed interest in knives beyond being simple home kitchen cutlery.

And I think there are a lot more wannabe commandos in this world to whom the ad will appeal than there are politically sensitive "knife enthusiasts". Boker is a business. They exist to sell knives. Unless you plan on buying their full production runs, expect them to market their knives in the fashion that they expect will best sell them.

Question - Do you read Tactical Knives? The very title and slant of the magazine should offend you a great deal more than Boker's attempt at a clever ad. Jeez! They have whole ARTICLES about using knives as weapons! Think of the damage they're causing!

Addendum:

Oops - just realized that you SAW this ad in Tac Knives! You gonna cancel that subscription, or try to get them to be more "caring and sensitive" in their content? Or will you keep supporting their right to be an article of a free press - with whatever ads their sponsors want to print, regardless of whether or not you get the joke?

[This message has been edited by Brian_Turner (edited 04-11-2001).]
 
I've thought about this same thing for some time. I do see the humor in the ad's and think they are quite creative. On the other hand, however, I don't think companies that attempt to use "violence humor" are going to grow the market.

I've been amazed for many years at how many men DONT carry a pocketknife at all, because in recent years knives of any kind have been presented by the media as weapons. I think these companies could not just increase their share of the market, but increase the market by appealing to something other than this kind of approach.

Sort of reminds me of the day a child saw me working on a knife in my shop and announced in a loud voice, "You shouldn't be touching that -- knives are bad!"

Sad, isn't it....

John Ownby
http://www.johnownby.com
 
Hi Brian,

Don't get me wrong; I think non-wimpy, knife-oriented ads are very appropriate...Ads that are funny, thoughtful, hard-core (such as targeting "extreme sports" like rock climbing or directed to Police/EMT personnel), and witty.

But I find it hard to agree, though, with the point you made that:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I think there are a lot more wannabe commandos in this world to whom the ad will appeal than there are politically sensitive "knife enthusiasts".</font>
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Does this mean that in your favorite gun magazine, your favorite gun manufacturer should advertise to "wannabe commandos" with ads like, "Need an effective assassination tool? We offer the best handgun to blow them away!" Yes, I illustrated with a little exaggeration here, but like with guns, responsibility in advertising with our product, we cannot market to "wannabe commandos" or weekend warriors and expect not to take a negative hit in public perception.

The media has been, and will continue to be, not kind in their review of knife-related stories. They do look for words and claims from manufacturers stemming from their ads, websites, and catalogs to use against them. Just more food for thought.

Ron

[This message has been edited by Ron@SOG (edited 04-11-2001).]
 
Actually, I don't carry or own guns, so the question as phrased really doesn't apply. I'm not into lethality. I don't take this position because I'm a wannabe, rather because I believe that this whole topic is a huge {pick one: a) knee b) circle} jerk. Forgive me for my own exaggeration. Strike the Wannabe Commandos, and replace them with "edged weapon combat enthusiasts".

You are absolutely right that you might take a negative hit in perception by marketing to a demographic pariah. But that pariah might be a) easily identifiable and reachable with targeted marketing that is not intended to be viewed by an inappropriate audience, and b) quite large enough to be worth making a few people mad in order to reach.

My point is that it's your choice as a marketer how you want to market, just like it's your company's choice to sell a product that people might find objectionable regardless of your methods.

I certainly understand why SOG would be sensitive about this subject, and in fact, you make an excellent example. I also spoke up for SOG's behaving in responsible fashion when knees were jerking. I don't see you changing your name (company or model names) to distance yourselves from the military connotation, and you have certainly been under the microscope. But I think this reflects just the judgement I'm talking about - there is an appropriate place, so the names aren't wrong for the simple sake of their existence. They have a purpose, just like Boker's cutesy ad - to reach and appeal to their intended market.

I don't find any unpardonable sin in Boker's ad, especially considering the magazines they choose to run it in. This month's Tac Knives features the bold printed "FIT TO FIGHT" feature on it's cover, articles on martial arts weapons, and ads for "combat systems".
And we're debating the appropriateness of Boker's little bon mot as our bone of contention? Get serious.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ron@SOG:

Does this mean that in your favorite gun magazine, your favorite gun manufacturer should advertise to "wannabe commandos" with ads like, "Need an effective assassination tool? We offer the best handgun to blow them away!" Yes, I illustrated with a little exaggeration here, but like with guns, responsibility in advertising with our product, we cannot market to "wannabe commandos" or weekend warriors and expect not to take a negative hit in public perception.
</font>
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I don't think most of the people in this thread have a problem with the ads because they are promoting knives as weapons. They have a problem with promoting knives as offensive weapons. I can't speak for everyone, but that's the way I read it. I have no problem at all with advertising knives as defensive weapons, but the ads in question do not allude to knives being used for defense. Spyderco has done an excellent job promoting their Martial Blade Craft line as defensive tools. They are not advertising them heavily but the names and other publicity show that they are designed for self defense (not "creating" an emergency situation or making Bob build a shelter for example). I think that if ads like this become more commonplace then there is a greater chance that I am going to be hassled for carrying a knife. I know everyone hates political correctness, but there is such a thing as maintaining a good public image. Buck has done a lot of good lobbying and PR for knives in general lately, and I commend them for that. On the other hand, the next time they go to bat (for themselves or anyone else) politically, that ad will very likely be held up by their opposition. Then they will get to explain to a bunch of knee jerk politicians that the ad didn't mean what it seems like it says.

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Paul Davidson

Them:"What's that clipped to your pocket, a beeper?"
Me:"Uuh....yeah, something like that."

[This message has been edited by Paul Davidson (edited 04-12-2001).]
 
Hi Brian,

I was not meaning to pick a bone with you and I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I think we probably agree on more than it sounds.

I'm also not pointing directly at Boker's ad (and to be honest, I've not looked really closely at it), but rather talking more globally of the knife industry and the responsibility each knife manufacturer has to the other. In this case, I do believe that "one rotten apple" can spoil it for all of us with outrageous advertising and aggressive ads.

SOG does not shirk from its position of making military/LEO-style knives in addition to non-military knives and multi-purpose tools that a broad spectrum of consumers buys. I think it is very appropriate to advertise a product as being "military/LEO-oriented" and to strongly encourage appropriate military or law enforcement officers to use of these types of products in their duties.

I also believe strongly in the right of personal protection. These same products, in trained and prudent hands can be effective and outstanding tools for defense (I personally do not choose knives for protection, preferring handguns). Handguns, shotguns and rifles are correctly used and marketed with similar resolve. Here, being prudent and responsible is the key.

My comments are not about retreating from the "military" nature of some of the knife industry's products, but rather, like the gun industry, use restraint and forethought in marketing. The gun industry does successfully advertise. Comments like "Most law enforcement agencies trust our products and find them reliable" versus "Brandishing our product can scare away any bad guy" (notice less hyperbole than the "assassination" example…I'm trying) or even "Our bullets hit harder." (You can see why I'm not in advertising...I'm not any good at writing copy.) The first statement takes the high road. The other two put the product and the manufacturer in a less-than-preferable position.

I just have to wonder when I hear, "Our knives can cut, slash, stab anything" type advertising, at least in the extreme, how it will hurt us all? Again, has SOG done this type of ad? I don't know…maybe…all companies probably have to one degree or another. I think, though, we have reached a point as an industry, when comments like these just can no longer be afforded. (As stated, I don't write, approve, or have much of anything to do with our marketing. Have we or will we put out ads like these in the future? I don't know…not my department…I would personally advise against them.)

Paul…maybe I should use fewer words and say it as well as you. I agree.

Thanks all for listening.

Ron

Please remember that I'm visiting this thread personally and not on behalf of SOG. Also, for the record, I'm an avid gun enthusiast and owner…thus the gun examples.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Do you read Tactical Knives? The very title and slant of the magazine should offend you a great deal more than Boker's attempt at a clever ad. Jeez! They have whole ARTICLES about using knives as weapons! Think the damage they're causing!</font>
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Also Brian...at least for the moment, while I think about it more, I do view the knife manufacturer's marketed position as differently from the independent knife magazine's "user's" perspective. Is this duplicitous of me? I don't think so…but I'll sincerely ponder it more.

I think, though, knife magazines should review their content for tactfulness (I'm not talking censorship). We can all think of a certain magazine that has given not just knives and guns a really bad name by flat-out aggressive and sensational reporting (with aggressive and sensational art).

Ron


[This message has been edited by Ron@SOG (edited 04-12-2001).]
 
In defense of Tactical Knives relative to Boker, it is true that TK has alot of material on self defense. It is also true that TK pretty much avoids glamorizing self defense and is upfront about its possible legal consequences. Macho adverstising like Boker's does not show these subtleties.
 
I personally have no problem with marketing weapons as weapons. You can advertise a weapon in a classy and responsible way.

The Boker ad was not only classless, but it was also about a knife that was specifically designed for emergency and rescue situations. It's a special "Rescue" version of their Gemini knife. It's cleary not meant to be a weapon, yet the ad implies that one of the knife's purposes is to threaten or injure people.

I just read in another thread about how the city of Philadelphia outlaws carrying any knife in public unless you're actively using it in your profession. Carrying any knife is illegal. And why shouldn't it be? If the knife companies themselves freely admit that all knives are weapons, then why shouldn't they be illegal? The right to keep and bear arms is not absolute, and if all knives -even small folding pocket ones designed to save lives- are arms, then why not make them illegal?

It's weird how no other industry is moronic enough to make light of the suffering their products could cause if used irresponsibly. You don't see humorous beer commercials about drunk driving, or gun ads that make fun of school shootings, or cigarette ads that have witty remarks about lung cancer. Why do some knife ads make jokes about hurting people? I don't get it.

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Cerulean

"My good reason to carry a knife is that God gave me rather weak teeth and rudimentary claws in an evolutionary trade-off." - J.K.M.

[This message has been edited by cerulean (edited 04-12-2001).]
 
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