Disgusted with Boker ads

Marketing knives as weapons is not the problem. Implying that, because of your knife, "the authorities are already on the way" or that "this knife is good for causing an emergency situation" is the problem.

You will not find a more ardent defender of free expression than me, nor will you ever hear me question the concept that knives are viable weapons of self defense. When Blade announced its policy of refusing to do articles from the knives-as-weapons viewpoint, chastized the rest of the industry for running weapon-oriented ads, and then hypocritically defended its decision to continue running those very same advertisements for the revenue, I posted here and called them on it.

I do not have a problem with weapons, nor in advertising them as such, be they blades, guns, impact tools, or whatever.

My original post was prompted by this Boker ad in particular because, no matter how I tried, it seemed difficult to interpret in a humorous or otherwise neutral way. I kept silent in reading the earlier ads, though the ones implying that a knife was worth several black belts struck me as courting liability problems. But this one seemed particularly bad.

And, let me state this again for you, Brian: my problem with the ad is that it implies criminal conduct, not defensive or even offensive conduct.

That seems like an important distinction to me. It seems worth discussion to me. It doesn't seem to me that the difference should be so hard to understand.

-Razor

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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.

[This message has been edited by Razoredj (edited 04-12-2001).]
 
I like the ads. Keep it up Boker and Buck. IMHO, BladeForums is progressively becoming PC and it is a shame. I'm only 31 and I feel like I know what the old timers are talking about when they refer to the "good old days".
The only way you'll lose your knife rights is if you sit idle while the mindless masses erode them away, not by a couple of funny ads aimed at their appropriate audience. I think if you read them right, you'll notice the sarcasm they intended.

Chris
 
You make a good point, CPR, but I don't think BF is becoming politically correct. Rather, I think many of its members have become sensitive to PC's impact on knife users as a community, and are responding to that impact and the issues it raises. The Buck ad I referenced *is* funny, taken by itself, but it still sounds to me like you're forcing poor Bob at knifepoint to build that shelter for you. In light of the implications of criminality in the Boker ad, it just seems like a potentially harmful way to market a knife.

Incidentally, I remember a previous thread in which a knifemaker's ads actually insulted knife users to sell what the manufacturer considered a high-end fighter. The ads went something like, "You've never been in a knife fight, you've never had to defend yourself, and you don't have what it takes -- we can tell by the knives you buy." The implication being, of course, that true Tough Guys would buy one of these blades because they were "serious." It isn't the same issue -- it sort of takes the knife-as-weapon/knife-as-tool debate from the other side of the fence -- but it does raise similar questions about how best to market knives to their targeted audience, whether or not other readers are even considered.

-Razor

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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.

[This message has been edited by Razoredj (edited 04-12-2001).]
 
What I see from this entire thread is, with the exception of a few people, the ones who would ban knives have had their way with the minds of the knife knuts. They not only have already legislated many assinine laws regarding sharp tools, they have succeeded in controlling the thinking of even knife knuts on the subject of knives. You guys are so wrapped around what the sheeple will think that you can't even have a laugh.

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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley

iktomi
 
That's possible, Rockspyder. Yet I don't agree with the Blade crowd, who pretend knives are only tools. At the same time, it's foolish to ignore the activities of the sheeple. What they think is wrong, but the tiny percentage of them who actually vote still outnumber those of us with free minds. As such we cannot afford to dismiss their bleatings, no matter how hysterical.

And yes, they have driven much of the fun and humor out of the hobbies and activities surrounding objects they fear. Ask any gun owner how much happier he'd be if he didn't have to worry every day about being legislated into a felon overnight. Those that dismiss the firearms arguments and their comparisons to knife ownership are living in delusion; knives are as reviled as firearms, and subject to the same political problems.

As recently as a couple of years ago my home state attempted to pass a law outlawing ANY locking knife, regardless of length. Any locking knife at all. I didn't think that was funny.

-Razor



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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.
 
Rockspyder,

I disagree.

No one has ever accused me of being politically correct. But, just the same I wouldn't advise you to walk into a powder room carrying an open flame. These ads are funny; But, they prey on the fear that knifenuts and non-knifenuts share. It is a dangerous way to sell a few knives.

Advertisements are all about product positioning. An assualt rifle was once simply a rifle used by infantry to conduct an assault (vrs. defense). During the 80s our gun makers gave the "assault rifle" a physical form - it became a black, ugly, plastic, semi-automatic, clip fed gun; and a purpose - to kill people. We all know what happened next.

We haven't compromised our priciples; but, some of us have learned from our mistakes. Scaring the uninformed masses with inside jokes about assault rifles, and leathal knives can eventually have an unfortunate backlash.

Unfortunate, because we know better; we know that fighting knives like assault rifles are largely illusionary. We know that "assualt rifles" merely means simple (unadorned) black gun, with reliable action, that field strips without tools. We know that a fighting knife is a midsize pointy knife that sometimes opens with one hand and has a reliable lock. To the uninformed though assualt rifles and fighting knives are weapons, used exclusively to kill people. And that's all they know - because that is all that we have taught them, by running stupid ads like the examples cited here.

 
It has nothing to do with what others will think, for me. It has to do with what is right, and what is wrong. Even if the Boker ad was encoded in secret knife-knut code, so no one but us could read it, it would still be wrong to encourage people to go out and cause emergencies. The Buck ad, I do think is funny enough that no one would take it seriously, but telling someone that they should buy your product, with the expressly implied purpose of going out and terrorizing innocent people, is just plain wrong, any way you slice it.

--JB

P.S., not2sharp: there is no such thing as a folding 'fighting knife' - if it folds, it's not a fighting knife. It might be a tactical knife, it might be a combat knife, but it isn't a fighting knife.

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e_utopia@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by e_utopia (edited 04-12-2001).]
 
I just happened to see the Boker ad that started all of this yesterday. I thought it was pretty funny at first, then I got a shiver down my spine, How would someone that did not share my views on knives feel if they saw this advertisement. Yes, the ad may be referring to defending yourself requiring the offender to be carted off to the hospital
but how many anti-knife activists are going to see things from that perspective. They are going to say that knives are tools of destruction, they cause people to become violent, destruction of the ozone layer, etc etc.. The ad was funny, but probably not in the best of taste. Boker and other manufacturers need to be more careful how they portray their tools to the public

C.Mapp

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"A sharp mind is just as important as a sharp knife."

"May your locks stay tight and your blades remain sharp"
 
Maybe we'd all be better off caving in to PC'ness and start collection plastic utensils and changing our name to SporkForums. That is until KFC comes out with an ad that could be interpreted wrongly by the liberal MINORITY and used against us. Then what, ToothpickForums? Come on people, grab yer units and show the world that ya got 'em.

Chris
 
There is a BIG difference between using a knife for an emergency situation and using one to create one (emergency situation). I don't care if the ad was/is in Tactical Knives magazine. That ad goes against the practcal, tactical,and LAWFUL use of a knife.

Paul
 
Hi CPR,

I've seen friends direct racial slurs toward each other actually as terms of endearment or just being funny...such as the "N" word (by the way, I don't understand this). But I promise you, let one other person hear that racial slur in a different setting, and you could have a fight on your hands because it would be misunderstood.

In other words, just because we can say it, just because it is funny to us, just because we have the right to say it, and just because it is witty, doesn't mean it should be said.

Are we old? Probably...and that's a good thing! I'm 37.

Ron
 
CPR, there is a difference between caving in to political correctness and actually believing that a particular ad might be inappropriate. Should we be blind to the errors of those of us who share our views and hobbies? If, to use a previous example, a firearms company marketed their latest rifle as "The Perfect Tool for Causing Emergencies" and "The Best Tool for Vigilante Justice," I think even the NRA would call that inappropriate, at the very least.

What if I started manufacturing the Rambotron 2000, and my ads stated:

"The Rambotron is perfectly heat-treated for slicing through the necks of your enemies. Don't have any enemies? Now you can afford to make some."

Sure, there might be some Knife People who thought that was funny, especially if that's how I meant it. But there would be plenty who, like me, would say: "I don't have a problem with weapons being advertised as such -- but that ad is inappropriate.""

I don't believe making that call leaves one in danger of testicular absenteeism, to interpret your colorful phrasing. (For that matter, I think exhorting people to "grab their units" damages one's credibility in a debate, but that's neither here nor there).

Believing that some methods of advertising are potentially harmful, possibly insulting, or some combination of other negatives does not automatically transform an individual into a drooling PC-pansy. It's a shame some people seem to think it does.

-Razor

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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.

[This message has been edited by Razoredj (edited 04-12-2001).]
 
What is X15 anyway? Since it's obvious we're not going agree on anything else.

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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley

iktomi
 
If any of you think that PC is a new thing then you need to do some history research. Politcal correctness has a different twist these days, but it all boils down to what is socially acceptable. That means what is acceptable to the majority of society. Our society in general is reacting to weapons as bad in all forms. Is that stupid? Yeah it is. Can we change it? Maybe, and hopefully. There are no "good old days". They only exist in the sentimentallity of people's memory. The main reason we are facing the anti weapon back lash is because of the media. The "liberal" media? No, the mainstream media which is almost all owned by large, "conservative" companies. Sure there are some vocal "liberal" antiweapon advocates, and there are some vocal "conservative" 2nd ammendment defenders. Neither group is actually in control of what people are voting or believing.

It's not just "PC liberals" that are doing this, and not all "conservatives" are pro-gun/pro-knife. People across the board are trying to ban weapons. I live in Cincinnati which is about as "conservative" and Republican as you can get. Democrats and "liberals" don't even try to run for a lot of the offices at election time, because they see it as a waste of time and money. OH in general is very Republican and "conservative". So we have a CCW law, right? Nope. Not yet, and I don't think we are all that close to getting one. The only legal way to have a gun in your car in Cincinnati is to have it unloaded and in your trunk. I have as many bad reactions to my knives and guns from "conservative" republicans as I do from "liberals".

What I'm trying to say here is this--"conservative" and "liberal" do not apply here. Political correctness has little to do with it. Was James Brady a "liberal'? Did the antiweapon movement start in our government and society in general the moment Bill Clinton was elected? No. It's been getting bigger and bigger for years, at least since the twenties and thirties. It's just come to a festering head right now.

The only way we will change any of this is by voting, writing, and appealing to the voters. "Grabbing our units" will do nothing to help logic and justice prevail here. There are a whole bunch of "people" downtown Cincinnati grabbing their units and telling the police and society in general that they are angry and don't care what society thinks. The Ohio National Guard is coming to pay them a visit today or tomorrow. If they had approached the media/government/society in a dignified and thoughtful manner they may have been heard. Now their words carry very little meaning or weight. If it was just the "liberal" MINORITY that had antiweapon/antidefense/anti2nd ammendment feelings, we wouldn't be facing the challenge that presently confronts us.

Nobody here wants to cave in to anybody about what we feel is right (our right to protect ourselves and own tools/weapons) but an in your face attitude will change nothing. Showing people that knife/gun/tool/weapon owners are reasonable and intelligent (for the most part) citizens that vote will accomplish a lot.

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Paul Davidson

Them:"What's that clipped to your pocket, a beeper?"
Me:"Uuh....yeah, something like that."
 
Rockspyder, you asked what was X-15? Boker uses this "stain-less" steel on the Heckler & Koch tactical folder too. It was reported to have an edge holding ability between 440C and ATS-34, but offer more rust resistance. Recently, I saw a Boker ad claiming it's rust proof.
 
Ron,

I understand what you're saying, but we need to keep things in perspective. This ad isn't going to directly affect anyone's knife carrying rights. I believe our energies are better spent bolstering grass roots organizations instead of whining about an ad that few (if any) people outside the knife community will ever see. If we become PC, we've lost. BTW, the whining comment refers to no one in particular. Geez, this thread is making me PC.
rolleyes.gif


Razor states:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">CPR, there is a difference between caving in to political correctness and actually believing that a particular ad might be inappropriate. Should we be blind to the errors of those of us who share our views and hobbies?</font>
Click to expand...

I don't see it that way. They are one in the same in this case, IMHO.

No, we shouldn't be blind. If you have a problem with their advertising let THEM know and boycott THEIR product if needed. I see you've done that already, so kudos to you. I just don't understand why we want BF to look like a bad (are there good ones?) episode of the Rosie O'Donnell show to prove a moot point.

If the anti-common sense crowd (more PC speak, ARRRGGGHHHH!) wants our knives, they'll concoct all sorts of fictitious data to sway public opinion against us. We've seen it happen with guns. Will they stop the hyperbole when we're the big target? This Boker ad isn't even a drop in the bucket if the big balloon ever goes up against us. We've got more important things to worry about.

Here is some advertising that relates to this thread that I find absolutely hilarious. http://www.birdman.org/
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Take care,
Chris
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I don't see it that way. They are one in the same in this case, IMHO.
</font>
Click to expand...

Well, therein is the heart of our disagreement.

As for whether or not this thread is pointless... These are, after all, discussion forums, and certainly a plethora of largely useless topics are raised here every week. But what better -- pardon the pun -- forum for debate on anything and everything knife related?

I started this thread because the Boker ad struck me as advocating criminal activity -- a marketing tactic I find ill-advised, at best. It struck me strongly enough that I'm a little surprised to have received such forceful accusations of political correctness. I mean, you might as well accuse Jim March of carrying a small knife or supporting gun control. (Hear this, Jim? You've achieved icon status.
smile.gif
)

-Razor

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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.

[This message has been edited by Razoredj (edited 04-12-2001).]
 
Thanks el cid.
smile.gif


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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley

iktomi
 
E_utopia

"P.S., not2sharp: there is no such thing as a folding 'fighting knife' - if it folds, it's not a fighting knife. It might be a
tactical knife, it might be a combat knife, but it isn't a fighting knife."

I agree; although, I would add the observation that some folders have been positioned in advertisements and articles as "folding fighters".

N2S
 
Paul,

When I think of people having an anti-common sense mentality, I think of liberals. Sorry, but I guess I've been brainwashed by the conservative right
wink.gif
I should have chosen my words better and I apologize for any hurt feelings. See, even I can get into this touchie-feely stuff
smile.gif


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The "liberal" media? No, the mainstream media which is almost all owned by large, "conservative" companies</font>
Click to expand...

Yep. Ted Turner is a staunch conservative and is a big proponent of one's right to self defense. Gimme a break.

The "good old days" do exist for people who value the right to arm themselves. How many times have you heard about our parents and grandparents bringing guns to school on a regular basis? Plenty. Heck, most of the kids in my high school (a yuppie school) brought guns with them and left them in their car or truck. I always carried a large folder with me. You can't credibly tell me that the current iteratrion of PC existed in our grandparents youth or even my younger days, considering these facts.

Chris
 
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