Diy heat treat oven help

My oven that is just fire bricks will be warm to the touch in the morning after running all day at aebl temps. It’s not uncommon for my oven to be a few hundred deg in the morning. And after a long day of heat treating (1900-2000°) the outside of the oven is not really that hot at around 200-250°F. I’m glad I did not put wool around mine as I can’t stand the stuff and I like having everything (bricks) in a solid position. I could see using a wool of sorts for a door seal but honestly with how reliable this oven has been I would not change a thing.
 
I don't know for sure if it what the amp draw is I do not have a amp meter
I live in Hawaii my energy cost to heat and cool would amaze you ;)

many parents have a house in Hawaii and it’s not uncommon for their power bill to be 1,500$-2,000$ a month. It’s a huge house and usually used as a vacation rental For wedding exc so the tenets are not energy conservative.

If your on Oahu your paying what 30-32¢/kw?
 
My oven that is just fire bricks will be warm to the touch in the morning after running all day at aebl temps. It’s not uncommon for my oven to be a few hundred deg in the morning. And after a long day of heat treating (1900-2000°) the outside of the oven is not really that hot at around 200-250°F. I’m glad I did not put wool around mine as I can’t stand the stuff and I like having everything (bricks) in a solid position. I could see using a wool of sorts for a door seal but honestly with how reliable this oven has been I would not change a thing.
Would like to see your oven, was there a build post or pics?
 
many parents have a house in Hawaii and it’s not uncommon for their power bill to be 1,500$-2,000$ a month. It’s a huge house and usually used as a vacation rental For wedding exc so the tenets are not energy conservative.

If your on Oahu your paying what 30-32¢/kw?
Electricity highest in the nation. I am on maui we pay around .35/kw
 
insulation is a good thing , was just making the point that even an oven with no insulation should be able to get up to temps.
 
Electricity highest in the nation. I am on maui we pay around .35/kw

Expensive electricity there .I don't know why you build oven when you have this ............. You need just thermocouple and one long pliers :D

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My oven that is just fire bricks will be warm to the touch in the morning after running all day at aebl temps. It’s not uncommon for my oven to be a few hundred deg in the morning. And after a long day of heat treating (1900-2000°) the outside of the oven is not really that hot at around 200-250°F. I’m glad I did not put wool around mine as I can’t stand the stuff and I like having everything (bricks) in a solid position. I could see using a wool of sorts for a door seal but honestly with how reliable this oven has been I would not change a thing.
We agree that heat transfer is always from hot to cold , right ?
Now let s try to clean something about ovens and insulation .

Lets start with Newton .................... The rate of heat loss of a body is proportional to the temperature difference between the body and its surroundings.

Heat transfer................we are dealing with this three ways of heat transfer

Conduction .......heat is transferred by conduction when adjacent atoms vibrate against one another, or as electrons move from one atom to another. Conduction is the most significant means of heat transfer within a solid or between solid objects in thermal contact

I can imagine how hard it will be to vibrate atom to jump from one fiber to other fiber in kaowool .........in bricks ?

Convection.....is the transfer of heat from one place to another by the movement of fluids, a process that is essentially the transfer of heat via mass transfer. Bulk motion of fluid enhances heat transfer in many physical situations, such as (for example) between a solid surface and the fluid.

There are lot of air inside 128 kg m/3 kaowool , don t you think ?

Radiation.........
Thermal radiation occurs through a vacuum or any transparent medium (solid or fluid or gas). It is the transfer of energy by means of photons in electromagnetic waves governed by the same laws.

Thermal radiation is energy emitted by matter as electromagnetic waves, due to the pool of thermal energy in all matter with a temperature above absolute zero . Thermal radiation propagates without the presence of matter through the vacuum of space.

Thermal radiation is a direct result of the random movements of atoms and molecules in matter. Since these atoms and molecules are composed of charged particles (protons and electrons), their movement results in the emission of electromagnetic radiation, which carries energy away from the surface.


Then we have this ...............
Insulation, radiance and resistance
Thermal insulators are materials specifically designed to reduce the flow of heat by limiting conduction, convection, or both. Thermal resistance is a heat property and the measurement by which an object or material resists to heat flow (heat per time unit or thermal resistance) to temperature difference.

Radiance or spectral radiance are measures of the quantity of radiation that passes through or is emitted. Radiant barriers are materials that reflect radiation, and therefore reduce the flow of heat from radiation sources. Good insulators are not necessarily good radiant barriers, and vice versa. Metal, for instance, is an excellent reflector and a poor insulator.

The effectiveness of a radiant barrier is indicated by its reflectivity, which is the fraction of radiation reflected. A material with a high reflectivity (at a given wavelength) has a low emissivity (at that same wavelength), and vice versa. At any specific wavelength, reflectivity=1 - emissivity. An ideal radiant barrier would have a reflectivity of 1, and would therefore reflect 100 percent of incoming radiation. Vacuum flasks, or Dewars, are silvered to approach this ideal. In the vacuum of space, satellites use multi-layer insulation, which consists of many layers of aluminized (shiny) Mylar to greatly reduce radiation heat transfer and control satellite temperature.

Now everyone can connect the dots .........in what bricks are best, in what ceramic fiber board are best , in what kaowool is best ..........What we want is to slow down as much we can heat transfer , so it is good to use different insulation materials .

Back to your oven ............no one says she's not good .
And after a long day of heat treating (1900-2000°) the outside of the oven is not really that hot at around 200-250°F
This is not proof of good insulation, by any means...............it's just proof of how much heat/energy your oven emits/loses in the environment , nothing else .The fact that the surface temperature is not higher is just because the total area of your furnace is large enough to transfer the temperature in environment , temperature which come from elements inside of oven /where temperature means something to us/ through the bricks .
There are many different insulation material to reduce the flow of heat .None of them / commercially available to us / individually is best/good at successfully preventing all three modes of heat transfer ....... conduction, convection and radiation .
Good isolation means .........energy save , faster heating and better heat uniformity in oven .
With only bricks , that light bulb on PID that tells us when the elements are on , will turn on much more often then on oven with more insulation and that is fact :)
 
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We agree that heat transfer is always from hot to cold , right ?
Now let s try to clean something about ovens and insulation .

Lets start with Newton .................... The rate of heat loss of a body is proportional to the temperature difference between the body and its surroundings.

Heat transfer................we are dealing with this three ways of heat transfer

Conduction .......heat is transferred by conduction when adjacent atoms vibrate against one another, or as electrons move from one atom to another. Conduction is the most significant means of heat transfer within a solid or between solid objects in thermal contact

I can imagine how hard it will be to vibrate atom to jump from one fiber to other fiber in kaowool .........in bricks ?

Convection.....is the transfer of heat from one place to another by the movement of fluids, a process that is essentially the transfer of heat via mass transfer. Bulk motion of fluid enhances heat transfer in many physical situations, such as (for example) between a solid surface and the fluid.

There are lot of air inside 128 kg m/3 kaowool , don t you think ?

Radiation.........
Thermal radiation occurs through a vacuum or any transparent medium (solid or fluid or gas). It is the transfer of energy by means of photons in electromagnetic waves governed by the same laws.

Thermal radiation is energy emitted by matter as electromagnetic waves, due to the pool of thermal energy in all matter with a temperature above absolute zero . Thermal radiation propagates without the presence of matter through the vacuum of space.

Thermal radiation is a direct result of the random movements of atoms and molecules in matter. Since these atoms and molecules are composed of charged particles (protons and electrons), their movement results in the emission of electromagnetic radiation, which carries energy away from the surface.


Then we have this ...............
Insulation, radiance and resistance
Thermal insulators are materials specifically designed to reduce the flow of heat by limiting conduction, convection, or both. Thermal resistance is a heat property and the measurement by which an object or material resists to heat flow (heat per time unit or thermal resistance) to temperature difference.

Radiance or spectral radiance are measures of the quantity of radiation that passes through or is emitted. Radiant barriers are materials that reflect radiation, and therefore reduce the flow of heat from radiation sources. Good insulators are not necessarily good radiant barriers, and vice versa. Metal, for instance, is an excellent reflector and a poor insulator.

The effectiveness of a radiant barrier is indicated by its reflectivity, which is the fraction of radiation reflected. A material with a high reflectivity (at a given wavelength) has a low emissivity (at that same wavelength), and vice versa. At any specific wavelength, reflectivity=1 - emissivity. An ideal radiant barrier would have a reflectivity of 1, and would therefore reflect 100 percent of incoming radiation. Vacuum flasks, or Dewars, are silvered to approach this ideal. In the vacuum of space, satellites use multi-layer insulation, which consists of many layers of aluminized (shiny) Mylar to greatly reduce radiation heat transfer and control satellite temperature.

Now everyone can connect the dots .........in what bricks are best, in what ceramic fiber board are best , in what kaowool is best ..........What we want is to slow down as much we can heat transfer , so it is good to use different insulation materials .

Back to your oven ............no one says she's not good .

This is not proof of good insulation, by any means...............it's just proof of how much heat/energy your oven emits/loses in the environment , nothing else .The fact that the surface temperature is not higher is just because the total area of your furnace is large enough to transfer the temperature in environment , temperature which come from elements inside of oven /where temperature means something to us/ through the bricks .
There are many different insulation material to reduce the flow of heat .None of them / commercially available to us / individually is best/good at successfully preventing all three modes of heat transfer ....... conduction, convection and radiation .
Good isolation means .........energy save , faster heating and better heat uniformity in oven .
With only bricks , that light bulb on PID that tells us when the elements are on , will turn on much more often then on oven with more insulation and that is fact :)

my pid does not have a light bulb and I do not use SSR’s lol.
 
A simple way to add a layer of insulation on the outside of any oven is to use lightweight foil coated insulation boards like Roxul. Two $20 24X48X1.5" sheets will do most any oven exterior. The high temp stuff is rated to 1200°F It comes from 1" to 6" thickness. Use 3" or 4" wide reinforced metal AC duct tape to tape the seams for a neat and tight fit. It works well for tempering ovens, too.
 
I pose a question to the courts if it so pleases them. The new oven I’m building will have the fire bricks (real K23s) turned so the wall thickness will be 4.5”. My question is how does 1.5” of extra fire bricks compare to 1” of compressed wool?
 
A simple way to add a layer of insulation on the outside of any oven is to use lightweight foil coated insulation boards like Roxul. Two $20 24X48X1.5" sheets will do most any oven exterior. The high temp stuff is rated to 1200°F It comes from 1" to 6" thickness. Use 3" or 4" wide reinforced metal AC duct tape to tape the seams for a neat and tight fit. It works well for tempering ovens, too.
Anything compressed will have less insulating value. so, if the wool starts out less insulating (per thickness) than brick ..... then you will loose just that much more. A quick search shows the thermal conductivity of the two to be in the same ballpark ..... so if you compress the wool, you will loose some. I would say go with the thicker brick....
 
I pose a question to the courts if it so pleases them. The new oven I’m building will have the fire bricks (real K23s) turned so the wall thickness will be 4.5”. My question is how does 1.5” of extra fire bricks compare to 1” of compressed wool?

From a couple of quick google searches, it looks like k23 firebrick typically has a much lower thermal conductivity than your average kaowool. Compressed (or higher density) wool will have an even higher thermal conductivity I believe.

Not to say that conductivity is the only factor to consider, as I'm sure there's a number of other variables, but I imagine it's a pretty big part of the equation. Conductivity also increases with temperature, but brick still generally blows kaowool away from what I can see.
 
The reason I ask is because I can’t imagine the wool not compressing when you put it between the shell and brick. The way I stack my brick I put it under compression with bolts and this allows me to span 2 bricks across the roof (18”). It just seams like some people look down on only using brick around here but if your not gaining anything from the wool then why not just use the thicker brick.
 
A simple way to add a layer of insulation on the outside of any oven is to use lightweight foil coated insulation boards like Roxul. Two $20 24X48X1.5" sheets will do most any oven exterior. The high temp stuff is rated to 1200°F It comes from 1" to 6" thickness. Use 3" or 4" wide reinforced metal AC duct tape to tape the seams for a neat and tight fit. It works well for tempering ovens, too.

Anything compressed will have less insulating value. so, if the wool starts out less insulating (per thickness) than brick ..... then you will loose just that much more. A quick search shows the thermal conductivity of the two to be in the same ballpark ..... so if you compress the wool, you will loose some. I would say go with the thicker brick....

My suggestion was for retrofitting an oven for better insulation so it does not get as hot on the exterior, or insulating a tempering oven.
 
Anything compressed will have less insulating value. so, if the wool starts out less insulating (per thickness) than brick ..... then you will loose just that much more. A quick search shows the thermal conductivity of the two to be in the same ballpark ..... so if you compress the wool, you will loose some. I would say go with the thicker brick....
Insulation K23 bricks are about 600-800 kg m/3 ,ceramic fiber we want is 128 m/3.
Would you please look this PDF on page 39 ?
https://web.wpi.edu/Pubs/ETD/Available/etd-082208-114851/unrestricted/Purushothaman.pdf
 
From a couple of quick google searches, it looks like k23 firebrick typically has a much lower thermal conductivity than your average kaowool. Compressed (or higher density) wool will have an even higher thermal conductivity I believe.

Not to say that conductivity is the only factor to consider, as I'm sure there's a number of other variables, but I imagine it's a pretty big part of the equation. Conductivity also increases with temperature, but brick still generally blows kaowool away from what I can see.
Kaowool is not the same thing as ceramic wool ......look at here and see difference in thermal conductivity ?
page 10 and 11 .............
https://www.morganthermalceramics.c...al-ceramics-product-data-book-e-version_2.pdf
 
Natlek - density is not equivalent to thermal conductivity. All I said is that, all else being equal, when you compress an insulator, you typically lose insulating efficiency
 
Anything compressed will have less insulating value. so, if the wool starts out less insulating (per thickness) than brick ..... then you will loose just that much more. A quick search shows the thermal conductivity of the two to be in the same ballpark ..... so if you compress the wool, you will loose some. I would say go with the thicker brick....
Difference in thermal conductivity for ceramic wool between 64 kg m/3 vs 123 m/3 is double ............nothing will change is wool is little compressed !
https://www.morganthermalceramics.c...al-ceramics-product-data-book-e-version_2.pdf
 
Kaowool is not the same thing as ceramic wool ......look at here and see difference in thermal conductivity ?
page 10 and 11 .............
https://www.morganthermalceramics.c...al-ceramics-product-data-book-e-version_2.pdf

Looks like they're similar enough, depending on grade? Either way, some of the ceramic wools are a little bit closer to firebrick than I initially thought, though the brick still looks to have a slightly lower conductivity.

Of course, the question still remains: Does any of this really make that big of a difference for a 2.5" inch to 4.5" thick heat treating oven? How about after it's been soaking at around 2000F for 6 hours? What if the bricks are mortared vs not?
 
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