DLC/PVD Misinformation

I live to far away, but It sure would be a fascinating experience. I'm sure that there are many here that would love to attend. :thumbup:

Tom
 
Wow! Extremely generous! I knew there was one in NC, I just had no clue where. I'm about an hour out as speculated. I know for a fact there are a handful of other members close to this plant as well. I thank you sincerely Darrell.
 
Ionbond said:
Bad_juJu,

Have a Got a Deal for You.. Ionbond has another Plant in Greensboro North Carolina that services both Firearms and Cutlery and according to Mapquest, your only 52 miles away.. Your also invited to visit Greensboro Nother Carolina sometime..

Darrell lewis
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Darrell, I an just under 2 hours away from Greensboro and would love the chance to see your facilities and their inner workings. Can I be added to the list?
 
Darrel, I don't see a way to contact you by email or PM. I would absolutely love to come by the new facility in Wilsonville and see everything. As a total nerd, I'd love to know more about the chemistry and engineering involved.
Do you mind if I cross post the invitation to another forum? There are a group of us organizing a get together in early December for the Oregon Knife Collectors Association Show down in Eugene but those of us up in the Portland area I'm sure would also be interested in seeing the facility and having a get together up here.
 
Ionbond logic: See confusion regarding coatings and processes on a forum->Invite forum members to facilities to take a tour and see for themselves.

That's how great businesses conduct themselves right there! :thumbup:
 
SPXTrader said:
Darrell, I an just under 2 hours away from Greensboro and would love the chance to see your facilities and their inner workings. Can I be added to the list?
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Could I also be added to the list? I'm only a couple miles away
 
EBHM4 said:
Ionbond logic: See confusion regarding coatings and processes on a forum->Invite forum members to facilities to take a tour and see for themselves.

That's how great businesses conduct themselves right there! :thumbup:
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Indeed!
 
Ionbond said:
If a DLC coating is not ultra- hard, it can still be a DLC – there is no attempt to deceive the public. In certain situations we want to increase ductility of the coating by reducing its hardness. As to the economics of the process, the machines capable of depositing DLC coating have become very large and extremely efficient. The knife, gun and automotive industries take advantage of the economics of scale to lower the per piece price of the DLC coating. DLC coatings do not have to be expensive provided that they can be coated in very large quantities.
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As an applicator of industrial coatings of for Sherwin Williams, I was certified to apply different high end coatings that do all kinds of different tasks. Fascinating stuff. To me, Sherwin Williams has the most thorough training and available information around to support their products.

I have been laughing all the way through this thread as it is the same old gang gnawing on the same old bones left over from the Kershaw sub forum. Same stuff, different day. Next up... Elmax!

But I had to stop here at George's post because he actually reveals the nuts and bolts of the whole discussion of DLC (not the application aspect) in a couple of well written paragraphs. It isn't an absolute. The gist being that DLC comes in different grades that yield different results.

With that in mind, it is important to remember that DLC describes a product, and is not an absolute, closely DEFINED description of one product. And of course, not being a copyrighted trademark, there are those that will sell the product for all they can get out of it by simply referencing the product in general.

Likewise, "Rhino Tough" may not be as tough as a rhinoceros, Boker's new "German made" offerings might be assembled in Germany but from Chinese parts, etc., etc. Wide latitude must be expected in advertising. So did anyone, anywhere at any time comment on the DLC hardness coefficient? I never saw it. And since industrial grades diamonds might not even be as hard as a hard quartzite... but still technically diamonds...

NOTE to those reading. I didn't comment on the coating process as that in itself has already been well covered.

Robert
 
I live in asheville NC and would love to join the tour! What a generous offer!!!
 
I'll head up the East coast Greensboro tour. If you are interested in attending please PM or email me and we'll get a list started.
 
bad_juju said:
I'll head up the East coast Greensboro tour. If you are interested in attending please PM or email me and we'll get a list started.
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Cool. Just make sure it isn't scheduled during one of our famous winter ice storms....:D

So put me on the list!

Oh, and one more tiny thing...can I bring my Officer's Model to be used as a test subject?
 
midnight flyer said:
So did anyone, anywhere at any time comment on the DLC hardness coefficient? I never saw it.
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Here ya go buddy...you must have missed this part:

Ionbond said:
The properties range from the super hard, to the less hard, but more ductile coatings. When I speak of a less hard coating, I am speaking of a hardness that is generally greater than that of the harden tool steel that the coating is applied to!
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P.S. - Robert, I really appreciate you joining these discussions, even though you have to struggle through your disdain. That's very kind of you.
 
Ionbond said:
Hello Everyone,

I guess it is my turn to chime in on the PVD /DLC controversy.

Let’s begin with DLC’s (Diamond-Like –Carbon) coatings. DLC is an accepted term used in the scientific community to describe carbon coatings with an extremely broad range of properties. The properties range from the super hard, to the less hard, but more ductile coatings. When I speak of a less hard coating, I am speaking of a hardness that is generally greater than that of the harden tool steel that the coating is applied to!

If a DLC coating is not ultra- hard, it can still be a DLC – there is no attempt to deceive the public. In certain situations we want to increase ductility of the coating by reducing its hardness. As to the economics of the process, the machines capable of depositing DLC coating have become very large and extremely efficient. The knife, gun and automotive industries take advantage of the economics of scale to lower the per piece price of the DLC coating. DLC coatings do not have to be expensive provided that they can be coated in very large quantities.

If any coating is rubbing off without effort- it means that it was poorly applied or there was a process problem, end of story. No coating should rub off with a paper towel. Another aspect that we also need to bear in mind is that the texture of the blade can play a role in what we perceive. For example, the coating on a roughened blade may appear to wear more quickly than on a smoother surface. This is part due to the high peaks of the roughened surface being smeared or broken during abrasion.

I’ve gone on too long, but one final note. The term “PVD” seems to have been used in a negative context. PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition) as someone has already pointed out, is a broad term that describes processes that can and do deposit excellent, well adhered, high performance coatings, including but not limited to DLC’s.

All the best, George
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Excellent post, very informative and educational. Thanks for that!

I've already covered my erroneous generalization of the PVD terms in my previous post, so I don't need to rehash that, but thanks for the added clarification.

I wish there were more information out there (in layman's terms) than there is. So much is lost when you research this due to formulas and processes that go over my head (and I would think most folks). In the watch industry, when you specify that you want "a black steel case" you're not given a multitude of options, or levels within each option. You simply go with IP, PVD or DLC. While one may be a process and another may be the material... it doesn't matter, nor is it specified... those are simply your choices given to you by the factory or case finisher. Titanium Nitride coatings are also becoming a popular option now as well. You don't choose DLC and get offered varying levels of quality... DLC is just "DLC" and in our industry, it is a high grade treatment that provides the best scratch resistance of any applied finish.

Likewise in knives, "DLC" just seems to be a blanket statement. Since most knifemakers (possibly all) who offer a DLC blade use an outside source to do it for them, they might not even know what the DLC properties actually are. Someone in your field knows all of the available options, and their quality. As far as large scale knife manufacturers go, I'm unsure if they do their own DLC or if that is subcontracted out.

There's a great amount of confusion surrounding what material is used in a PVD process, or what is being used in DLC optioned pieces.

In my own personal collection, the only piece I believe that uses a true DLC (again, "true" to the term I am accustomed to in my industry), is my Rockstead SHIN. It is a very hard coating, and glass-smooth to the touch. There is no roughness, grittiness or texture to it at all. Running my fingers across it, it feels like glass, or a mirror polished steel blade (which is what's underneath). Running my fingers across virtually any other brand knife in DLC, you feel a graininess or texture to it.

I suppose the best, logical question I can ask is this: is there a way to accurately determine is a proposed "DLC" blade is utilizing a high quality, scratch resistant DLC, or some other type of coating that isn't as scratch and wear resistant? Many brands advertise their DLC option as being wear resistant, or better for hard use than their other blade options, so it would seem to me that this *is* a selling point for them. Aside from my Rockstead, I have yet to own any other DLC blade that didn't show wear easily & quickly under normal use.
 
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