DLC/PVD Misinformation

Here ya go buddy...you must have missed this part:

Originally Posted by Ionbond
The properties range from the super hard, to the less hard, but more ductile coatings. When I speak of a less hard coating, I am speaking of a hardness that is generally greater than that of the harden tool steel that the coating is applied to!

I was actually asking about a quantitative, universally recognized number or character that was accepted as a specifically defined definition as is done with Rockwell numbers, etc. Since I didn't see one, I wanted to make sure I didn't miss it.

P.S. - Robert, I really appreciate you joining these discussions, even though you have to struggle through your disdain. That's very kind of you.

Hmmmm.... not sure what that's about. My amusement with the old Kershaw gang, perhaps? I used to be one...

Robert
 
In my own personal collection, the only piece I believe that uses a true DLC (again, "true" to the term I am accustomed to in my industry), is my Rockstead SHIN. It is a very hard coating, and glass-smooth to the touch. There is no roughness, grittiness or texture to it at all. Running my fingers across it, it feels like glass, or a mirror polished steel blade (which is what's underneath). Running my fingers across virtually any other brand knife in DLC, you feel a graininess or texture to it.

I suppose the best, logical question I can ask is this: is there a way to accurately determine is a proposed "DLC" blade is utilizing a high quality, scratch resistant DLC, or some other type of coating that isn't as scratch and wear resistant? Many brands advertise their DLC option as being wear resistant, or better for hard use than their other blade options, so it would seem to me that this *is* a selling point for them. Aside from my Rockstead, I have yet to own any other DLC blade that didn't show wear easily & quickly under normal use.

I think what ionbondwas saying is that the reason the shin's dlc seems more resistant is because the blade was polished before application. That smoothed this finish out and keeps it from smearing during use. It would seem that the texture we feel on other dlc blades is from the grind lines or from bead blasting before coating and not the actual coating itself.
 
JSkelton's Question..

I suppose the best, logical question I can ask is this: is there a way to accurately determine is a proposed "DLC" blade is utilizing a high quality, scratch resistant DLC, or some other type of coating that isn't as scratch and wear resistant? Many brands advertise their DLC option as being wear resistant, or better for hard use than their other blade options, so it would seem to me that this *is* a selling point for them. Aside from my Rockstead, I have yet to own any other DLC blade that didn't show wear easily & quickly under normal use.

George’s Quote

If any coating is rubbing off without effort- it means that it was poorly applied or there was a process problem, end of story. No coating should rub off with a paper towel. Another aspect that we also need to bear in mind is that the texture of the blade can play a role in what we perceive. For example, the coating on a roughened blade may appear to wear more quickly than on a smoother surface. This is part due to the high peaks of the roughened surface being smeared or broken during abrasion

My Thoughts

Surface Finish plays an important roll/factor for wear or scratch resistant of the Coating, Mirror Polished, Satin, or Stonewashed coated blades will wear better than a Sand Blasted Flat Non-Reflective coated blade, Blasted Blades/Handles create Peak & Valleys, or a Rough Surface, with Hard Use these Peaks or High Points become Burnished or Abraded away.. Many times material is loaded or deposited on top of the coatings, looking scratched..


Not knowing the Model Rockstead Knife you own or any details, Most Likely Highly Polished and Coated, which minimizes scratching or abrasion of the Peak and Valleys..


Darrell
 
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The way DLC feels and looks changes on how the blade was finished before it was coated. The Kershaw Cryo DLC is a very smooth and shiny DLC, while the Blur's DLC is a rougher, more matt DLC. Just because they look and feel different doesn't mean one has fake DLC on it.
 
The way DLC feels and looks changes on how the blade was finished before it was coated. The Kershaw Cryo DLC is a very smooth and shiny DLC, while the Blur's DLC is a rougher, more matt DLC. Just because they look and feel different doesn't mean one has fake DLC on it.

The cryo is TiNi, not DLC. FYI.
 
I was referring to this one.

IMG_2077_zps35b609e1.jpg


Is this not DLC? I thought it was.
 
Most likley Titanium Carbo Nitride TIcN .. Coming from Asia, Titanium Nitride will have a Golden color becuase of depositing (Metal Titanium) & (Gas) Nitrogen Creates Titanium Nitride, Titanium + 2 Gases / Nitrogen + Carbon = Titanium Carbo Nitride (Gray/Black) Color.. This can also be deposited with Zirconium or Chronium with similar results..

The Rainbow coating you've seen is Titanium or Zirconium Oxide.. one (Metal) + Oxygen =TIO2 or TiOX / Titanium Oxide

I was referring to this one.

IMG_2077_zps35b609e1.jpg


Is this not DLC? I thought it was.
 
I have yet to own any other DLC blade that didn't show wear easily & quickly under normal use.

I have been carrying and using my DLC coated Kershaw Black Barrage for years and so far I don't see any scratches, marks or signs of wear. Sadly that is not the case with my Recon 1, it has the crappy black painted on teflon coating that Cold Steel uses. The crazy thing is that the Recon 1 with the crappy coating and mediocre AUS8 blade steel cost more than the Barrage with DLC coating and 14C28N steel, and the Recon 1 is made in Taiwan, the Barrage is made in the USA.
 
One inconsistency sticks out here...



From YouTube:



Did you change your mind with experience?


Your right there is a HUGE inconsistency. And that is the topic of each post that you feel contradicts each other. They have NOTHING to do with each other. My post on this forum are generalities that I like and dislike about Jim's Videos. I made no specific remark to what I thought was incorrect or correct about his statements in that video. I simply said that while I like Jim and his videos I feel he makes many errors and contradicts himself too often. If you would have investigated deeper before calling me out you would find quite a few comments where I call jim on what I believe to be BS.

Now my comment on his actual youtube page was very specific to one topic, the wear and abrasion resistance of coatings in general which no matter how incorrect he may have been on the process In which they are applied. IMHO no coating is as wear resistant as many people would like to believe. I have been challenged on this forum about how DLC black coating cannot be harmed by materials softer than it. This simply isnt the case. We see scratched black blades all the time. Many of them have some of the most durable coatings in the knife industry yet they still get scratched. If the coatings are so hard and impervious to scratches this would not be the case and the blades finish would hold up better. Because if these coatings are as hard or close to being as hard as ceramic what the heck are they cutting that is scratching their blades? If a blades coating cant be harmed by anything softer than it then that means many people that I dont know of are cutting hardened steel, rubies and sand paper with their knives and I honestly dont ever hear anyone say they subject their knives to that kind of rigorous cutting. Yet we see scratched black blades of all coating types all the time.

THAT was what my comment was in reference to. Same subject but two different sub topics. The reason why I didnt bother to mention these little factoids in the comments section of that particular video is because I have all ready got myself a bit of a reputation with him for commenting on many of his other videos pointing out errors that I feel he needed to address. In other words he all ready knows how I feel about certain issues and at that point it would be beating a dead horse. But just as I can be critical where I think it is due I can also give credit which is why I expressed thanks for him being honest about the lack of durability with coatings. Does that clear things up?
 
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Was interested in the post by agile_1. In particular, his note including "5. Sputter deposition: In which a glow plasma discharge (usually localized around the "target" by a magnet) bombards the material sputtering some away as a vapor for subsequent deposition."
In a previous lifetime, 1962 or so, I worked at Bendix Research labs, and we used that "sputtering" method (vacuum-deposition) to develop (with Harvard) some of the earliest electronic transistors...and also the "night-scopes" used by our boys in Viet Nam. Our scopes could increase the amount of available light by a factor of one million times. I was just a technician back then, but had a great time working with some good physicists. We used a lot of four-nines (99.99% purity) gold for transistor substrates and "wires" for our miniaturized circuits. We paid the normal rate...$35 per ounce. They were a real treat to get in the mail. Beautiful, obviously, in one-ounce "nuggets" from the refiner.
I kind of got off the subject matter, but thought it was a great experience.
 
I'm not bothered by folks who choose to debate a subject. I am however bothered when those folks choose to talk down to me as if they're somehow superior and actually call names like an 8th grade child. Allow me to explain my "ignorant nonsense"....

Yes, I was talking for about 20 minutes, and perhaps didn't clarify every point and use definitive terms that everyone would wholly grasp. My bad on that. Let me say it here as clearly as I can:

The supposed DLC coatings most manufacturers claim on their knives is not in fact true DLC as in Diamond Like Carbon coatings (applied in whatever manner). It is a lesser quality material that is far more easily scratched and marred applied using PVD process. It is not DLC but something else that is inferior (regardless of how it is applied, it is not DLC).

There is a vast difference in cost.

I apologize that I draw from my watch experience, and that causes confusion. In the watch world you coat surfaces in either IP (Ionic Plating), PVD or DLC. IP is the most common, least expensive and not the most durable. PVD is a step up in price and durability. DLC is the top of the line providing near ceramic like scratch resistance. SO I simply categorized the knife coatings as simply as this. My apologies for not being more detailed.

As i stated in my response on the video comments section: Some of y'all are way too anal. It's a general discussion. If someone says "Wow, the moon light is so gorgeous tonight", you're the kind that just has to tell them that the moon doesn't radiate light, but simply reflects light from the sun, so therefore, the reflected sunlight off the moon is gorgeous tonight. And PVD is the lowest rate of success and quality DLC is not applied that way. IBD and PACVD are the optimal ways of applying DLC.

So let me be clear... I am not ignorant on the subject, I simply chose my words poorly and didn't realize I had to be so unbelievably specific.

Regardless of application process used, DLC is the most wear and scratch resistant, so people want to buy anything in DLC. Knife brand marketing appeals to this and calls a clearly inferior coating "DLC" knowing that it is not. After speaking with a couple of makers, there is a true DLC that is very scratch and wear resistant, but it is very expensive and simply not able to be used on budget oriented knives. I was not calling KAI out specifically on this, I very clearly stated that this is widespread across the industry.




Before more people start believing rumored BS, allow me to clarify for you right here.

The one person who chose to spread lies about me for over 5 years finally recanted his stories on his own website proving nothing that was said about me was true. Better late than never I suppose. It spread like a virus for years, and is now finally over.

So please don't try to use a crutch of lies in an attempt to discredit me.

How precisely would I be getting free stuff? My overviews are on my own knives that I buy myself (many of which members here know I have bought off the forums), and Guest Blades episodes are knives sent in by people who own the knives.

And it wouldn't matter either way honestly. I give pros and cons to every knife I have put under my lens. If KAI had approached me and sent me a free ZT, that'd be swell... but the same statements would have been made in that case as well.

I allow people to comment however they wish. I have banned exactly 3 people from my YT channel, and only for being belligerent to my subscribers.

That all being said, I'm no expert, never claimed to be. As a matter of fact I have repeatedly stated this on several videos. I'm a collector and enthusiast who is growing and learning as I go along, enjoying it for what it is.



I hope this helps.


Jim, Like I said I like you. I really do. And maybe my comments in my last post seem a bit harsh but its just one mans perspective from the outside looking in. I dont feel I stated anything in error. Lets be fair and even if the "crutch of lies" as you put it are now all proven to be false and you have been now vindicated you did have a reputation albeit and undeserved reputation. But even if many of the things said about you in the past were false you arent exactly the most PC of youtube and TV personalities can we agree? Sometimes this behavior can cast a shadow and either lend credit or doubt as to your true nature.

I'll leave that at that and please, let me clarify that I dont know if the rumors I have heard about you are true or not. This is why I mentioned nothing specific as I dont like to repeat things that I cant verify. Saying you have a reputation is no a lie it is a fact. That can be proven. I cant however prove if it is a deserved reputation. My comments in regards to you possibly receiving merchandise for a positive review was exactly what I described it as a conspiracy theory. One generated by my mind when i see you completely ripping apart a ZT0600 yet when your holding a knife from a maker with his own reputation and I can see that the knife has issues that you never touch on it has me curious. I wont mention the makers name as he has enough issues. But from your videos and the work he has presented people in the very recent past he has quality control issues. Not major ones but certainly things worth mentioning. But it would seem your videos for his work are ALL praises.

I will give you this, you are very fair with MOST of your reviews. I have seen you be critical of nearly every knife you have reviewed except for one particular maker. And it just happens to be the only maker you buy things from that has known QC issues. Sorry that just seems a bit odd. Maybe you guys are friends. Maybe you saw he was on hard times and you wanted to help give his flailing career a little boost as a way of showing sympathy and support, I really dont know. I just saw some videos where you were being critical yet fair and maybe in the ZT video a little harsh yet in the videos for this one maker it was ALL praise even when me and a few other viewers felt there were visible issues you didnt address. That will always raise questions with the public who you make your videos for. Apologies if you felt I was being harsh or unfair, it wasnt my intentions. Like I said in another post I will be critical and complimentary when I feel it is due. And I am a fan albeit a critical and opinionated fan.

.

In my own personal collection, the only piece I believe that uses a true DLC (again, "true" to the term I am accustomed to in my industry), is my Rockstead SHIN. It is a very hard coating, and glass-smooth to the touch. There is no roughness, grittiness or texture to it at all. Running my fingers across it, it feels like glass, or a mirror polished steel blade (which is what's underneath). Running my fingers across virtually any other brand knife in DLC, you feel a graininess or texture to it.

You actually answered your own query. The rockstead is smooth because the coating was deposited on a mirror polshed blade. The graininess you describe on other knives is not due to the coating itself but the texture of the metal it is being applied to. In most cases with knives coatings are applied over a bead blasted finish for consistency, ease of application and cost. Mirror polishing a blade before applying the coating is usually only done when a particular look is needed to be achieved because mirror polishing todays high hardness steels is takes time and money and most production companies arent going to invest that kind of money into something they dont feel their customers will pay a premium for. Other companies that have done a DLC over a satin and mirror polished blades is microtech. Some were described as Diamond like caron and older models were called boron carbide. I dont know the difference.
 
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In my own personal collection, the only piece I believe that uses a true DLC (again, "true" to the term I am accustomed to in my industry), is my Rockstead SHIN. It is a very hard coating, and glass-smooth to the touch. There is no roughness, grittiness or texture to it at all. Running my fingers across it, it feels like glass, or a mirror polished steel blade (which is what's underneath). Running my fingers across virtually any other brand knife in DLC, you feel a graininess or texture to it.

I suppose the best, logical question I can ask is this: is there a way to accurately determine is a proposed "DLC" blade is utilizing a high quality, scratch resistant DLC, or some other type of coating that isn't as scratch and wear resistant? Many brands advertise their DLC option as being wear resistant, or better for hard use than their other blade options, so it would seem to me that this *is* a selling point for them. Aside from my Rockstead, I have yet to own any other DLC blade that didn't show wear easily & quickly under normal use.

I'm wondering how thick you think DLC coatings are generally?

The surface texture of a DLC coating will tell you what the surface texture of the substrate is and not much else. Its not like these things are being dipped in vinyl or something.
 
The PVD coatings that we deposit are between .5-1.0 Microns for Door Knobs/Faucets and Cutlery 2-3 Microns.. Automotive 2-4

WHAT IS A MICRON..

A "micron" is an abbreviated term for "micrometer", or a millionth of a meter (1/1,000,000 meters). This is about .00004 inches. For Size comparison.
A human red blood cell is about 5 microns across.
A human hair is about 75 microns across (depending on the person).
Bacteria can be between about 2 microns and 3 microns in size.

The coatings we apply will not hide or cover grind lines, scratches, or any type blemish..
 
I've already covered my erroneous generalization of the PVD terms in my previous post, so I don't need to rehash that, but thanks for the added clarification.

No sir, you did not. You attempted to back pedal on what you actually said, and are continuing to pretend that you didn't accuse knife manufacturers and Ionbond of deceiving the consumers. The description of your video still says: "the Lie that is "Black DLC" in the knife industry. It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal. You accuse an entire industry of lying and trying to deceive the consumers, and now the information that debunked your lies is "added clarification."

Initially, you didn't have the integrity to admit that you were just wrong, but now you're lying through your teeth while your accusations sit right behind you.


Likewise in knives, "DLC" just seems to be a blanket statement. Since most knifemakers (possibly all) who offer a DLC blade use an outside source to do it for them, they might not even know what the DLC properties actually are. Someone in your field knows all of the available options, and their quality. As far as large scale knife manufacturers go, I'm unsure if they do their own DLC or if that is subcontracted out.

How likely do you think it is that Kai USA, Spyderco, Benchmade, etc. will invest in a company to coat their products without a full understanding of the process and the end product? "They might not even know what the DLC properties actually are." That's nonsense, and you must know that. I'd be genuinely surprised if that were an honest statement made out of ignorance. And as far as large scale knife manufacturers go, at least one of them clearly sources Ionbond to do their coatings. It would behoove you to keep up with a conversation if you insist on inserting more nonsense accusations into it.


There's a great amount of confusion surrounding what material is used in a PVD process, or what is being used in DLC optioned pieces.

Maybe on your end, but not generally. You are asserting that there is confusion, but it seems pretty transparent.

In my own personal collection, the only piece I believe that uses a true DLC (again, "true" to the term I am accustomed to in my industry), is my Rockstead SHIN. It is a very hard coating, and glass-smooth to the touch. There is no roughness, grittiness or texture to it at all. Running my fingers across it, it feels like glass, or a mirror polished steel blade (which is what's underneath). Running my fingers across virtually any other brand knife in DLC, you feel a graininess or texture to it.

Which is, yet again, the result of the finish of the metal. And again, I worry if this statement is being made honestly, because it shows a remarkable amount of ignorance despite the very clear information given in this thread.

I suppose the best, logical question I can ask is this: is there a way to accurately determine is a proposed "DLC" blade is utilizing a high quality, scratch resistant DLC, or some other type of coating that isn't as scratch and wear resistant? Many brands advertise their DLC option as being wear resistant, or better for hard use than their other blade options, so it would seem to me that this *is* a selling point for them. Aside from my Rockstead, I have yet to own any other DLC blade that didn't show wear easily & quickly under normal use.

You said that you could rub off the DLC coating of a 0777 with a paper towel. For some reason...I have a hard time taking anything you say seriously or accepting the conclusion that you know what you're talking about.


Jim, you should come to the factory tour. If you do, I'll buy you a drink. It'd be nice to see if you are actually interested in learning (as you purported yourself) or if you're really just interested in pretending that you're a conspiracy buster.

Cheers.
 
You will be Hard Pressed to find a Knife Manufactured in the United States that offers in a Coated product not using Ionbond, I won't name these
manufactures here with out approval from them.. Ionbond didn't just invest over $5,000,000.00 for a new Start Up Facility in Wilsonville because
we liked the weather.. We're there because of the Cutlery and Medical Industry in the Pacific North West..

In time all Knife Manufactures of Ionbond's East of the Mississipps River will coat product in Greensboro North Carolina, and West will be supplied from
Wilsonville..

I don't have membership here to post pictures, if one of the members that know my email address will email me I can send pictures
of the Grand Opening od Wilsonville and they can be posted here to gain a Snapshot of a Coating Facility..

Darrell
 
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You will be Hard Pressed to find a Knife Manufacture in the United States that offers a Coated product not using Ionbond, I won't name these
manufactures here with out approval from them.. Ionbond didn't just invest over $5,000,000.00 for a new Start Up Facility in Wilsonville because
we liked the weather.. We're there because of the Cutlery and Medical Industry in the Pacific North West..

In time all Knife Manufactures of Ionbond's East of the Mississipps River will coat product in Greensboro North Carolina, and West will be supplied from
Wilsonville..

I don't have membership here to post pictures, if one of the members that know my email address will email me I can send pictures
of the Grand Opening od Wilsonville and they can be posted here to gain a Snapshot of a Coating Facility..

Darrell
You can post photos if you use an image hosting site (photobucket, imageshack, etc)
I'll also volunteer to post your pics if you want.
 
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