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Do the ethics of a knife maker/company matter to you?
- Thread starter alaskanativeson
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It matters to a certain extent.
I won't buy a Strider, and his reputation may have something to do with it, but they don't appeal to me.
I've read people who say they won't buy a certain product because of political leanings, and I think that's a bit silly. I know that being a liberal democrat puts me in the minority of knife and gun people, but in no way do my political beliefs conflict with my purchases. If I want a knife or a gun that I like, it doesn't matter who it's coming from as long as it's a reputable dealer/maker.
If a company advertises a knife strictly as a weapon I stay away because there's a lot of bad press involved. A company that makes a buck off of tragic events turns me away. As much as I love Spyderco and their business practices and ethics, the WTC knife was a turn off because it took a sub $100 knife and tried to sell it for close to $300... that's a bit unethical any way you look at it.
Don't need to say too much about DarkOps.
A company's reputation is important. I'm more likely to buy a Buck, Kershaw or Spyderco (aside from the afore mentioned WTC knife) than I am from a company with questionable practices or a bad customer service reputation. But that's not to say that if a knife appeals to me I won't buy it because of who makes me.
So yes, it matters and plays into my decision. But it's not the final determining factor.
I won't buy a Strider, and his reputation may have something to do with it, but they don't appeal to me.
I've read people who say they won't buy a certain product because of political leanings, and I think that's a bit silly. I know that being a liberal democrat puts me in the minority of knife and gun people, but in no way do my political beliefs conflict with my purchases. If I want a knife or a gun that I like, it doesn't matter who it's coming from as long as it's a reputable dealer/maker.
If a company advertises a knife strictly as a weapon I stay away because there's a lot of bad press involved. A company that makes a buck off of tragic events turns me away. As much as I love Spyderco and their business practices and ethics, the WTC knife was a turn off because it took a sub $100 knife and tried to sell it for close to $300... that's a bit unethical any way you look at it.
Don't need to say too much about DarkOps.
A company's reputation is important. I'm more likely to buy a Buck, Kershaw or Spyderco (aside from the afore mentioned WTC knife) than I am from a company with questionable practices or a bad customer service reputation. But that's not to say that if a knife appeals to me I won't buy it because of who makes me.
So yes, it matters and plays into my decision. But it's not the final determining factor.
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Ethics mean a great deal to me. As was stated earlier, knives are really a hobby of mine, something that I love to consider from all angles before making a purchase. That means not only the design elements and the steel but also the designer and the company they represent. Since I have enough time to research and learn about all the characteristics of the knives I choose to buy, then knowing that I'm buying from a stand-up company becomes important to me. For me, it is usually more important than the price. Bottom line is, I have a lot of knives and don't exactly need one immediately now. I can wait and get the product that I want.
The other aspect that is very important to me is supporting homegrown operations. If I had a choice between a maker and a big corporation, I invariably go with the maker. I appreciate the ability of being able to write a personal e-mail or to call the maker up and ask them about their thoughts on their work or suggestions about how to use the product. I like the fact that when I'm engaged with a maker in purchasing a new knife that we often share 30-40 e-mails that not only cover the specifics of the deal but also little tidbits about personal philosophy or even our personal lives. Its reminiscent of going to the local hardware store, the one down the street from you whose owner lives a block away from your house. You go in and buy a piece of hose and shoot the breeze for 5 minutes. Yeah, I can go to the big box store and buy that hose for 20% cheaper. I can go there and use one of those self-checkout machines so that they can forgo hiring a single mother in the community. Personally, I'd rather support my neighbor. I'd also rather support my knifemakers, unless he's a jerk, in which case I don't want anything to do with them.
More specifically, I'd rather support knifemakers engaged in this community of blade forums. BF is like my neighborhood and when those makers contribute here, more so than just hocking their wares, but actually contribute to content and discussions, then they become just like my neighbors. Same goes with corporate entities that engage BF. Some tend to use BF more for marketing or as service support, but others really endeavor to engage the community. I like it when CEO's write about their thoughts and engage in discussions and critiques of their products.
As we head into this global economic crisis, company ethics are going to be challenged more than ever. We've already seen this with the poor starving financial institutions who see fit to pay themselves million dollar bonus' while crying fire and trying to foreclose on every loan they have their hands on. We will see more and more multi-nationals moving their production to cheaper labor markets. You can argue that our demand, for cheap, disposable goods has driven much of this trend. However, in an age where multi-nationals feel no loyalty to a particular nation, they also don't feel loyalty to their customer base and time and time again have shown they neither do so with their own workers. Some companies buck the trend and those are the ones I want to support.
If you don't think company ethics are important to your buying decisions, then look around at your kids or grand kids (or project to that future when you may have them) and ask yourself who is going to hire them for their first job? It probably won't be the company with the gutter ethics and cheapest products!
The other aspect that is very important to me is supporting homegrown operations. If I had a choice between a maker and a big corporation, I invariably go with the maker. I appreciate the ability of being able to write a personal e-mail or to call the maker up and ask them about their thoughts on their work or suggestions about how to use the product. I like the fact that when I'm engaged with a maker in purchasing a new knife that we often share 30-40 e-mails that not only cover the specifics of the deal but also little tidbits about personal philosophy or even our personal lives. Its reminiscent of going to the local hardware store, the one down the street from you whose owner lives a block away from your house. You go in and buy a piece of hose and shoot the breeze for 5 minutes. Yeah, I can go to the big box store and buy that hose for 20% cheaper. I can go there and use one of those self-checkout machines so that they can forgo hiring a single mother in the community. Personally, I'd rather support my neighbor. I'd also rather support my knifemakers, unless he's a jerk, in which case I don't want anything to do with them.
More specifically, I'd rather support knifemakers engaged in this community of blade forums. BF is like my neighborhood and when those makers contribute here, more so than just hocking their wares, but actually contribute to content and discussions, then they become just like my neighbors. Same goes with corporate entities that engage BF. Some tend to use BF more for marketing or as service support, but others really endeavor to engage the community. I like it when CEO's write about their thoughts and engage in discussions and critiques of their products.
As we head into this global economic crisis, company ethics are going to be challenged more than ever. We've already seen this with the poor starving financial institutions who see fit to pay themselves million dollar bonus' while crying fire and trying to foreclose on every loan they have their hands on. We will see more and more multi-nationals moving their production to cheaper labor markets. You can argue that our demand, for cheap, disposable goods has driven much of this trend. However, in an age where multi-nationals feel no loyalty to a particular nation, they also don't feel loyalty to their customer base and time and time again have shown they neither do so with their own workers. Some companies buck the trend and those are the ones I want to support.
If you don't think company ethics are important to your buying decisions, then look around at your kids or grand kids (or project to that future when you may have them) and ask yourself who is going to hire them for their first job? It probably won't be the company with the gutter ethics and cheapest products!
Sal Glesser
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Hi Psychopomp,
FYI, 100% of the proift from the WTC project went to the Widows & Orphans fund. Everyone paid full boat ($225), even my family, for theirs. The only non paying pieces went to President Bush (#911) and mayor Giuliani (#2001).
sal
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Sal, you are one of the good guys in my books :thumbup::thumbup:
For me, as many have already stated, it's a matter of degree. Advertising hype like Cold Steel's doesn't bother me. Then again I have grown up in an environment flooded by ads making it seem that shoes can grant the wearer magical powers and that beer will make women appear.
However I'm a firm believer in intellectual property rights so Ontario trying to take the RAT name just rubs me the wrong way. Though to be honest I haven't seen an Ontario design that grabs me either.
However I'm a firm believer in intellectual property rights so Ontario trying to take the RAT name just rubs me the wrong way. Though to be honest I haven't seen an Ontario design that grabs me either.
Gollnick
Musical Director
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Fortunately for us buyers, we have plenty of choices. There are plenty of knifemakers, plenty of knife manufactures, and plenty of dealers. There are custom knives which are one-of-a-kind, of course, but very few are truly peerless. We usually have options.
How we exercise those choices set the course for our industry. If we choose to patronize unethical makers and manufactures, then our industry, our hobby in many cases, will become infested with unethical people. If we reward with our business the "good" guys, then our industry will come to be full of them; and wouldn't that be nice.
You may think, "No, my buying this one knife wouldn't make much difference." But you are wrong. The knife market is small enough that every purchase does matter if only a little bit. Buying a fifty-thousand dollar major custom piece has a big impact; it's like dropping a huge rock into a lake and makes big waves. But buying a twenty-five dollar production folder is like dropping a small pebble; it's not the same huge waves, but it does make ripples which radiate out and have some effect.
So, please do think about how your purchases do affect the industry and the future, about the ripples you will make even if they are small.
How we exercise those choices set the course for our industry. If we choose to patronize unethical makers and manufactures, then our industry, our hobby in many cases, will become infested with unethical people. If we reward with our business the "good" guys, then our industry will come to be full of them; and wouldn't that be nice.
You may think, "No, my buying this one knife wouldn't make much difference." But you are wrong. The knife market is small enough that every purchase does matter if only a little bit. Buying a fifty-thousand dollar major custom piece has a big impact; it's like dropping a huge rock into a lake and makes big waves. But buying a twenty-five dollar production folder is like dropping a small pebble; it's not the same huge waves, but it does make ripples which radiate out and have some effect.
So, please do think about how your purchases do affect the industry and the future, about the ripples you will make even if they are small.
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Yes. Yes, it does.
I am a professional. I've spent my life in career fields (US Military, Physics & Engineering, Acquisition) where there is enormous emphasis on ethics and integrity.
It's too late for me. Integrity and ethics are things I will never be able to ignore. I will not work nor will I associate with those who do not understand this.
I am a professional. I've spent my life in career fields (US Military, Physics & Engineering, Acquisition) where there is enormous emphasis on ethics and integrity.
It's too late for me. Integrity and ethics are things I will never be able to ignore. I will not work nor will I associate with those who do not understand this.
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Ah. I didn't know that. But with all the "commemorative" stuff produced around then, it's hard to tell what's real and what's not.
Thanks Sal.
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Why care about someone else's choices or mistakes? Unless they have mistreated the elderly or abused children, I don't give a whoopee.
More folks get lied to on Sunday mornings in America than by any knife maker.
I know good knives when I see them. And, I buy what I like.
More folks get lied to on Sunday mornings in America than by any knife maker.
I know good knives when I see them. And, I buy what I like.
gazz98
Gold Member
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It matters to me as well, but is also hard to judge a person or company on ethics. Why? Because we never get the entire story. Much of what we see/hear is bits and pieces of the truth and hearsay imo. There are two sides to every story and we seldom get both sides.
I don't know what really happened between Ontario and RAT, but I own products from both and are very happy with them. I wish them both the best of luck and know both can exist as separate entities.
I don't know what really happened between Ontario and RAT, but I own products from both and are very happy with them. I wish them both the best of luck and know both can exist as separate entities.
To expand, many of those pontificating about knifemaker ethics only go that far. Applying the same standard to much else in their life would be way too difficult. They may have to actually research and think about their lifestyle, ethics, and applied daily morality.
Does anybody with a 401k specify which stocks or markets you won't invest in? Do they even know? Do they buy goods from foreign countries with knowledge of exactly what the labor conditions are? Do they always buy only from certified moral companies that match their personal ethics profile?
I seriously doubt it very much. But they will pile on about a discretionary expense directly related to perceived masculinity, irregardless of whether it's actually an effective tool or made of decent materials. And, no, "Made in the USA" isn't an automatic pass.
Bitch all you want about makers, they do one thing well - make a product their customer base will pay a premium to get. I look at a knifemakers ethics in the materials they choose and the quality of assembly. If they don't have value for my dollars, I don't go there anymore.
I see 420 blades and FRN grips at $60 and wonder why people line up to get fleeced. THAT is my basis of looking at a maker's ethics - value for the price. Dragging in second guessing, backbiting, and overwrought speculation is more a statement of the poster's ethics than anything else.
Does anybody with a 401k specify which stocks or markets you won't invest in? Do they even know? Do they buy goods from foreign countries with knowledge of exactly what the labor conditions are? Do they always buy only from certified moral companies that match their personal ethics profile?
I seriously doubt it very much. But they will pile on about a discretionary expense directly related to perceived masculinity, irregardless of whether it's actually an effective tool or made of decent materials. And, no, "Made in the USA" isn't an automatic pass.
Bitch all you want about makers, they do one thing well - make a product their customer base will pay a premium to get. I look at a knifemakers ethics in the materials they choose and the quality of assembly. If they don't have value for my dollars, I don't go there anymore.
I see 420 blades and FRN grips at $60 and wonder why people line up to get fleeced. THAT is my basis of looking at a maker's ethics - value for the price. Dragging in second guessing, backbiting, and overwrought speculation is more a statement of the poster's ethics than anything else.
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I most certainly believe it does matter.
Why would you want to own anything that you know has been made by a liar and a thief?
When you rip someone off intentionally either by stealing their intellectual, physical or financial property IT IS THEFT
Personally I do not want the results of that theft in my knife collection....bad karma.
Would anyone out there knowingly buy a stolen knife? Buying a knife from an individual or company who has ripped off customers or suppliers is tantamount to buying stolen property in my book.
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Really? Because the thing that pushed me over the top with Mick Strider was that a customer bought one of his knifes on the secondary market and it was awful, bad grinds and heat marks on the edge looking like it may have hurt the heat treat (the edge at the tip was purple)and he posted on the forums asking if this was normal for a Strider knife.Mick Strider came on and called him all kinds of names and cussed him out.I said to myself right then I would not own a Strider if you gave me one.
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Yes it does and it certain instances, very much so.
Many a coin has gone to Sal and family in my days.
RAT and the guys have secured my loyalty as well.
Companies like Benchmade have earned little of my cash but I do cave when I see one I really like. Thats only happened three times.
As far as folders, Spyderco gets most of my green.
And RAT will more than likely take my fixed blade budget.
Many a coin has gone to Sal and family in my days.
RAT and the guys have secured my loyalty as well.
Companies like Benchmade have earned little of my cash but I do cave when I see one I really like. Thats only happened three times.
As far as folders, Spyderco gets most of my green.
And RAT will more than likely take my fixed blade budget.
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it's not a major problem for me, but if there is a decidion to be made between two knives and i feel that one company conforms more to my way of thinking, then they get my custom
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Yes, especially a custom maker.
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