Do the ethics of a knife maker/company matter to you?

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Yes they do matter to me. But I will admit I'm not as up on the knife gossip as some. Sometimes it's hard to figure out the information from the misinformation though. A good example would be Cris Reeve's company. I don't have a Sebenza yet(but I will soon). I have read that his company won't allow his knives to be sold less than msrp and no one seems to have a problem with it(nor do I), but lots of people are up in arms about Benchmade. That is why I am starting to concentrate on customs, although this slows down my buying a lot.
 
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Well
I don't know what to say.
Normally, yes it matters very much. But, I still bought a Strider. I did so due to some solid feedback by a much trusted coworker who had some excellent dealings with his striders and some warranty work.
I'm in the midst of somewhat regretting that decision though.
 
I think it matters, but I'm not sure that the different producers get held to the same standards very often.

When people buy knives from a company, they often look at something LESS than the personal philosophy, integrity, or values of an individual. If people are looking at all, they are often looking at a more surface depth 'market spun' view.

When people start looking at the individual beliefs and values of a custom maker, they are looking - often- WAY more deeply. I suppose this is part of dealing with an individual.


Do I look at these things? Yes. I'm about to buy a new air rifle, and the FIRST thing I did was discount the chinese made guns. Some of them are really nice, but I have to be convinced at this point that any given manufacturer plays fair with their 'employees'. I could have gotten a rifle for $150 that probably would have kept me in meat and shotgun shell (empties make good 20-50 yard field targets) at my non-olympic skill level for years. But I've chosen something where the labor practices are fairly decent (german made) and I'm getting it tuned and customized on direct order from an American airgunsmith. I'm spending about $60 more than I'm comfortable with, and $200 more than I have to if I can handle a chinese slave labor springer. But I think it matters. I *know* it matters to some of my customers.

I think internal consistency is often more important that the specifics. Take Cold Steel- in my opinion all the martial stuff is mall ninja level. But it is practiced and performed with *some* degree of integrity that at the very least makes it all hang together as a solid whole. I don't have to agree with it all.

Psychopomp makes a very good point- and one that I think gets lost in our polarized state as a nation. Not everyone you disagree with is actually evil or unethical. I have gotten pretty tired of people talking about just BEING a democrat as treason, for example. I find I can respect a lot of American knife and gun work, and wilderness gear production- regardless of my level of agreement with their religious and political choices. The fact that they are there is more important most of the time. (up to a point, of course)

And KGD makes a point that's invaluable. The best thing we can do to 'fix' the economic crisis - and the best thing for the long term health of any economy- is to balance the corporate greed with a hefty dose of supporting individual artisans and small businesses.
 
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Of course! Ethics do matter! A lot of things are about ethics. Mind you, poor ethics such as outrageous bonusses contributed a major deal to the credit crunch. Although it is nearly impossible to screen every knife-maker, I will not do business with companies/individuals with poor track-records concerning ethics, that is including decent quality assurance and quality control. For that matter, I won't buy Striders. Not only did Mick lie about his military services, his company's quality assurance is also questionable at least. Sure, Striders are good knives, but there are a lot of excellent knives made by people with higher ethical standards.
 
razorsdescent said:
yes i too have heard alot of people refer vaguely to an infraction or infraction commited by BRKT but have never actually figured out what it was. i bbelieve it had something to do with the owner.:confused:
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Hopefully someone will step in because I never heard anything bad about Mike Stewart. I have several of his knives and the quality is great.
 
there were a couple sizable threads about BRKT at BG&U. Stewart took an order for several thousand dollars of knives, then canceled the order and took his sweet time refunding the money, even telling the other party that he wouldn't get his money back until the order was sold to someone else.

Bringing this up caused others to bring up past transgressions in dealings, and a case where the local government sued him for taxes. He does not seem as well liked on the insider side as he is by buyers.
 
3Guardsmen said:
How would you know if a knifemaker's ethics were "whacked" if you don't even know what they are?:rolleyes:
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You make my point for me. 90% of the hand wringing over unethical behavior here is hearsay or simply blown out of proportion.

Few are privy to knifemaker's lives and business practices. We only see what emerges from the extremes that appear on the forums, hate or love.

That's why I say ethical problems would have to be pretty extreme for me to care. They'd have to be extreme enough that they were very well publicly known and acknowledged. Perhaps some kind of convicted child molester or CEO of a failing company who got a golden parachute.

Why do knifemakers have to be on a pedestal to be worshiped? Where does the ethical line end? Is it unethical if he enjoys cockfighting? Drinks too much? Is a jerk to his kids?

3Guardsmen said:
My answer is in regards to "tall tales" in general, and doesn't apply to any knifemaker in particular: Gee, I wonder!:rolleyes: Would "tall tales" possibly help to sell knives that might not get sold otherwise? Could "tall tales" get you into certain circles you might not otherwise be able to enter? Are you really unable to grasp this, Shecky? If so, I pitty your lack of understanding of basic marketing.
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Tall tales are arguably the definition of marketing.

So again, ethics only bother me as far as they concern me as a knife consumer. I don't care if he's being sued for back taxes (actually, I might consider that a plus), or is copying some sacred design, or telling me what a badass knifefighter he was back in 'Nam. What matters to me is that he makes a good knife for a price I can afford. That other stuff is his problem, not mine.
 
Yes, ethics does matter to me. When I decide to buy a knife, I figure out as much as possible about it before I buy it. If it has some sort of history behind it, whether it be brand or just a copy-cat type knife, than I will not get it. By brand, I mean if the brand tries to put others down too much, than they will not be getting money from me. If they market their product to the extreme, but the product is still decent, than it depends on what they are doing to market it so highly.
 
shecky, all that stuff affects pricing and competition. The price you can afford is influenced by the prices you are accustomed to seeing for the product class. I'm not paying extra to someone who is selling on an image or gaining higher profit by screwing others to gain marketshare, and I wish others didn't because they influence the industry.
 
Like what was said before, if the company is willing to do bad things or use outlandish marketing tactics, then they will not mind hurting their customers as long as they make a buck. The character the company shows will influence my final decision if I have a choice to make between two knives. And it is quite refreshing that good ole customer service and just plain being down to earth nice people are not going out of business and out of style. A company with bad CS may wind up going the way of the dodo bird.
 
hardheart said:
Bringing this up caused others to bring up past transgressions in dealings, and a case where the local government sued him for taxes. He does not seem as well liked on the insider side as he is by buyers.
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How much does anybody really know about the ethics of their favorite makers? Do you really want to put every maker under the microscope? If you're willing to cut Stewart or Spyderco or Buck some slack, and not others, simply because they give you warm fuzzy feelings, you're a hypocrite. And if you decide to apply some ridiculous ethical standard rigidly across the board, it just kind of makes you a nutty crusader.

All this stuff strikes me as a way for some folks to justify the drama of their personal knife nuttery. Knife nut Joe hates Brand X knives because they look like copies of precious Brand Y. But that's not good enough, so Brand X is now unethical! No, immoral! Thieves! Or whatever emotion laden descriptor that can be dredged up, all for the sake of buttressing someone's personal tastes over knives.
 
Yes Ethics does have an effect on what knives I will buy. That said, my personal experience with said maker will also determine this. 4 Cases in point:

1) I know all about Mick Strider's military service issues that have been hashed out here. I've also read his post over on his forum where he addressed them. If I had never met him, talked to him, and seen some of his generosity extended to soldiers & their families, I might not buy his knives. Instead, due to my own personal experience, I've bought a few Strider Knives.

2) Like a lot of members here, some of my early entries into knife obsession were by Cold Steel. I still have a old Cold Steel Kuhkri that I have beat the hell out of that is still going strong and a SF Shovel sits in my truck. My opinion started to sour with them when they (or should it read Camillius) changed the steel used in Carbon V. I'd had an original SRK that I'd given to a friend and when I went to get a new one, it did not feel the same. When I asked Cold Steel about it, they responded there was no difference between the 2. Technically you could say they did not "lie" to me since in truth it was still Carbon V steel. What I did not know is that "Carbon V" is a trademark of Cold Steel's and can be applied to any carbon steel they use. Make an SRK out of 1095, coat it black, stamp Carbon V on it, and Ta-da! it's the same as the original. A lie? No, just misleading. Also around that time there was a big rivalry going on between Cold Steel and their Trailmaster and a newcomer called Busse and their Battle Mistress. Ads by Cold Steel were placed taking shots at Busse and their claims. That year at BLADE Busse finally challenged Cold Steel to back up their claims, but they declined. Also heard a rumor or 2 about Lynn Thompson making rude comments towards Rex Applegate - though I don't know the facts about that. Then came my personal experience. I approached Cold Steel's booth at BLADE with some questions about my old Kuhkri. After years of use, it was finally beyond my ability to sharpen and needed to be re-profiled. The Representatives I was talking to were no flunkies, I'd seen them in Cold Steel's videos. Well before I could finish my explanation, they cut me off saying they would not take the knife back at that time. Told them I understood that, but who do I need to send it in to and what would it cost. Again almost before I could finish, I was told that my kind of use was not covered by their warranty and they were not sure anything could be done. Then they just blew me off to talk to another person there. I left pretty unsatisfied. Calling Cold Steel yielded nothing better from the CS Reps. Since then I have not bought anything from them. I've also watched how they pulled the same negative ad campaign against Strider Knives, and made copies (or contracted might be a better term) of other makers knife designs without any credit given - though always just different enough to avoid legal issues.

3) Approached a relatively new maker at that time at BLADE about some Japanese style kitchen knives he was making. The knife magazines were raving about his work & I thought I'd check them out as a possible future gift for my wife. He was very nice and helpful at 1st, but once I mentioned it would be a future purchase, almost instantly he turned to another person at his table and all conversation with me ended. WTF? I understand he makes his living making knives and I'm not buying at this time, but I sure as hell am not buying anything now.

4) Walking around at BLADE I see some guy in a cowboy hat with a cool little fixed blade. I am broke as hell, but I start checking it out and talking to the maker. Let him know up front I am broke and it did not matter. Ended up having a great conversation for about 30 minutes that went from knives, guns, the Army, the outdoors, and back to knives. Wish I had said to hell with it and bought that knife as Rob Simonich died before I could get one from him.

So yes a makers ethics do have an effect on what I buy, but I also temper it with first-hand experience and not just conjecture and word of mouth.
 
I buy most products including knives based mostly on what the value is to me and because it serves a function better than anything else I have tried. That said, ethics do matter tom me but I will decide what is ethical or unethical to me and won't be swayed by politics of personal opinions expressed here or elsewhere. You don't have to read very far into a post on knives to know whether you are hearing valid arguments about a product or just biased personal opinions.;)

Every story has two sides and there are no companies in general that I would consider unethical. I don't really buy into design theft as there are no real original designs left since everyone since the cavemen have been making knives. Patented features may be a different story if a company actually breaks the laws.
 
kgd said:
Ethics mean a great deal to me. As was stated earlier, knives are really a hobby of mine, something that I love to consider from all angles before making a purchase. That means not only the design elements and the steel but also the designer and the company they represent. Since I have enough time to research and learn about all the characteristics of the knives I choose to buy, then knowing that I'm buying from a stand-up company becomes important to me. For me, it is usually more important than the price. Bottom line is, I have a lot of knives and don't exactly need one immediately now. I can wait and get the product that I want.

The other aspect that is very important to me is supporting homegrown operations. If I had a choice between a maker and a big corporation, I invariably go with the maker. I appreciate the ability of being able to write a personal e-mail or to call the maker up and ask them about their thoughts on their work or suggestions about how to use the product. I like the fact that when I'm engaged with a maker in purchasing a new knife that we often share 30-40 e-mails that not only cover the specifics of the deal but also little tidbits about personal philosophy or even our personal lives. Its reminiscent of going to the local hardware store, the one down the street from you whose owner lives a block away from your house. You go in and buy a piece of hose and shoot the breeze for 5 minutes. Yeah, I can go to the big box store and buy that hose for 20% cheaper. I can go there and use one of those self-checkout machines so that they can forgo hiring a single mother in the community. Personally, I'd rather support my neighbor. I'd also rather support my knifemakers, unless he's a jerk, in which case I don't want anything to do with them.

More specifically, I'd rather support knifemakers engaged in this community of blade forums. BF is like my neighborhood and when those makers contribute here, more so than just hocking their wares, but actually contribute to content and discussions, then they become just like my neighbors. Same goes with corporate entities that engage BF. Some tend to use BF more for marketing or as service support, but others really endeavor to engage the community. I like it when CEO's write about their thoughts and engage in discussions and critiques of their products.

As we head into this global economic crisis, company ethics are going to be challenged more than ever. We've already seen this with the poor starving financial institutions who see fit to pay themselves million dollar bonus' while crying fire and trying to foreclose on every loan they have their hands on. We will see more and more multi-nationals moving their production to cheaper labor markets. You can argue that our demand, for cheap, disposable goods has driven much of this trend. However, in an age where multi-nationals feel no loyalty to a particular nation, they also don't feel loyalty to their customer base and time and time again have shown they neither do so with their own workers. Some companies buck the trend and those are the ones I want to support.

If you don't think company ethics are important to your buying decisions, then look around at your kids or grand kids (or project to that future when you may have them) and ask yourself who is going to hire them for their first job? It probably won't be the company with the gutter ethics and cheapest products!
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Talk about hitting the point home! A true tale of ethics and beliefs.:thumbup:
 
Halfneck, your examples are why I argue against making ethics an issue when buying knives. Basically, you argue that ethics matter, except when you decide they don't really matter. Or when you mistake ethics with customer service or friendliness. Of your four examples, I suppose only #1 had anything to really do with ethics. And you decided to not to make ethics an issue. With #2, conjecture did seem to play enough of a role to mention. # 3 & 4 have nothing to do with ethics.

This is not a personal attack on you. I am pointing out that you are like every one else on this board. Like every one else on the planet. I argue that we simply drop the pretense of ethics and face the truth. We don't like particular brands because, well, just because we don't like them. Rational or not. Unfounded or not. Emotional or not. those are acceptable reasons. There's no need for the dramatic justifications, demonization and rancor.
 
shecky said:
...All this stuff strikes me as a way for some folks to justify the drama of their personal knife nuttery. Knife nut Joe hates Brand X knives because they look like copies of precious Brand Y. But that's not good enough, so Brand X is now unethical! No, immoral! Thieves! Or whatever emotion laden descriptor that can be dredged up, all for the sake of buttressing someone's personal tastes over knives.
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LMAO! You owe me for a new keyboard, Shecky.

udtjim said:
I buy most products including knives based mostly on what the value is to me and because it serves a function better than anything else I have tried. That said, ethics do matter tom me but I will decide what is ethical or unethical to me and won't be swayed by politics of personal opinions expressed here or elsewhere. You don't have to read very far into a post on knives to know whether you are hearing valid arguments about a product or just biased personal opinions.;)

Every story has two sides and there are no companies in general that I would consider unethical. I don't really buy into design theft as there are no real original designs left since everyone since the cavemen have been making knives. Patented features may be a different story if a company actually breaks the laws.
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Well written, udtjim, I completely agree. :thumbup:
 
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