Do the ethics of a knife maker/company matter to you?

[orca8589]

I usually avoid the drama.

As far as ethics, I base most, if not all, of my buying on a company's customer service reputation. We've got A.G. Russell, Buck, Himalayan Imports, GEC...there are just too many great folks serving our little community here, with decades of great service. I don't recall any scandals or other drama with any these folks.

thx - cpr

 

[suttond]

I look at their reputation, delivery time, dependability, etc. I could care less about their personal ethics as long as they deliver a quality product.

 

[elkins45]

It seems to me a company that is willing to f*** somebody else for one reason is perfectly willing to f*** me for a different one.:grumpy:

Ethics always matter; they matter in everything.

I think maybe we are arguing because of differences in semantics. There's a difference between being truly unethical and just being a plain ol' grumpy jerk or annoying gasbag.

 

[enderwiggin]

You make my point for me. 90% of the hand wringing over unethical behavior here is hearsay or simply blown out of proportion.

Few are privy to knifemaker's lives and business practices. We only see what emerges from the extremes that appear on the forums, hate or love.

That's why I say ethical problems would have to be pretty extreme for me to care. They'd have to be extreme enough that they were very well publicly known and acknowledged. Perhaps some kind of convicted child molester or CEO of a failing company who got a golden parachute.

Why do knifemakers have to be on a pedestal to be worshiped? Where does the ethical line end? Is it unethical if he enjoys cockfighting? Drinks too much? Is a jerk to his kids?



Tall tales are arguably the definition of marketing.

So again, ethics only bother me as far as they concern me as a knife consumer. I don't care if he's being sued for back taxes (actually, I might consider that a plus), or is copying some sacred design, or telling me what a badass knifefighter he was back in 'Nam. What matters to me is that he makes a good knife for a price I can afford. That other stuff is his problem, not mine.

Shecky, come on. Take a company like Mantis Knives, for example. None of us know the guy personally--although I unfortunately happen to live near the idiot--but we've watched how he's run his company:

With lies about the blade material used, lies about where the knives are made, and by offering contests that reward the person who can spew the most hyperbole about how great the company is.

This isn't a problem of personal ethics, this is a business ethics problem. And yes, I am going to argue that you can tell what a person's ethics are by what they do in a given situation.

That's what defines personal ethics. Not what the person says they believe in when they're sitting in an Intro to Philosophy class, or an online forum, but what they do when they actually have a situation in front of them.


I'd argue that reputation, too, is a reflection of ethics. If you can confirm from reliable sources that a company is taking orders and shipping the correct product out to the buyer in a quick, efficient manner, that's great. Possibly a sign of ethical behavior.

If you can confirm from reliable sources that a company is taking orders, then ordering from a 3rd party because they carry no real stock, making the buyer wait 2 weeks while they make their order and receive their stock, then waiting an additional 2 weeks because the guy is too lazy to get off his couch and ship the purchase made a month ago... That's a sign of poor ethics.

 

[mnyshrpknvs]

Hi Psychopomp,

FYI, 100% of the proift from the WTC project went to the Widows & Orphans fund. Everyone paid full boat ($225), even my family, for theirs. The only non paying pieces went to President Bush (#911) and mayor Giuliani (#2001).

sal

Good for you Sal! That is mighty generous. :thumbup:

 

[the kid]

I only take in consideration the warranty and support a manufacturer gives.
I don't care if the knifes are made in a sweatshop by two month old baby's.

 

[knivesandguns]

I only take in consideration the warranty and support a manufacturer gives.
I don't care if the knifes are made in a sweatshop by two month old baby's.

Gosh doesn't that sound nice :thumbdn::foot::barf:

 

[shecky]

I don't care if the knifes are made in a sweatshop by two month old baby's.

And they were glad to have the work!

 

[rio]

i had a knifemaker taking a oder, i gave him half the money deposit and he said 6 months . After a year and some months with little communication , i get an email with two pics of knives that looked a little like the one i oder and he said pick one of them, i told him that is not the oder , nor the time or the way i do business , after a couple of weeks he refunded my money and life moves on, now what he lost was a customer, advertisement and any future business(second oder by me), now i will never say who it was cause that is between him and i but i know he will screw himself up if he thinks that is a good etique to live by. a guy lies weather is a maker or a buyer and he will get caugth soon or later is their life or damn problem, so if you ask me it matters and it will reflect on their work.

 

[marthinus]

To me ethics does count a lot.

 

[Smash05]

This question begs another, how do you define ethical behavior?

 

[Amnesiac]

I think most people cloak their "belief in ethics" by shades of grey. If they feel warm and fuzzy already they'll cut slack. If they already have negative feelings then they are much more likely to pull the ethics card.

Look at it another way. I'll bet many people on here are smokers. Many of those buy tobacco products from Philip Morris. You'd have to look really hard to find a company as unethical (in my book) as them. This goes forward into all of our lives. Can a Jew buy and Audi? The list is endless...

 

[alaskanativeson]

Doug, I'm glad to see your prediction has, so far, been incorrect. I'm quite impressed with most of the well thought out responses. Since we (speaking of Americans) live in a land where we are free to make our own choices, it's good to know that so many people do think about these things. I wouldn't expect people to know everything about every company they do business with (tirod3's point about knowing what's in my 401k for example) but if I do know something bad about a company I will avoid giving them my business if I can. That's why I like forums like this, it provides an exhange of information. I know that some people complain when a thread like this get brought up from the archives, but as my last post in that thread (not to mention the comment by Absintheur in this thread) points out, it's valid to have these things mentioned to inform those who don't know everything about the knife world. Another good example of this kind of this kind of information is Psychopomp's comment about Spyderco's WTC knife. I can understand being upset over what could appear to be a blatant attempt to prosper off of tragedy, but Sal's explanation shows that a company can indeed do great things without greed as their motive.

This brings up another question: How does a person/company go about straightening out their reputation? If it's a simple question of poor quality and/or customer service it's easy: Make better products and give better service. Buck is a great example of this. Have a problem with a Buck knife? Let the guys in Post Falls, Idaho know and they'll make it right. Every single time, in what I've seen. The same is true of RAT Cutlery (NOT to be confused with RAT knives made by Ontario Knife Company.) Have a problem with a RAT Cutlery knife? Jeff will make it right, no hassles or problems. Busse Combat, Spyderco, Ka-Bar, I've heard nothing but good about their service. My personal dealings with Chris Reeve have me convinced to buy more from him anytime. I bought a well worn Aviator made in the mid-80s which was in poor shape. After speaking with Chris himself on the phone about it, he refinished my knife and sent me a new butt cap long with it. The charge? $10.00. Great customer service, Chris. There's a guy I'll recommend without hesitation.

The problems I'm talking about are companies with problems that extend beyond their quality and service. (Of course if that's all that matters to you, the rest of this doesn't matter.)

Cold Steel gets a lot of complaints as a company because people despise the way they market their products, the fact that so many of their knife designs appear to be stolen from other makers, the fact that Lynn Thompson can be so abrasive etc. Can those of you who dislike CS imagine anything they could do to make you one of their customers?

Strider Knives is the raspberry seed stuck in my personal knife-buying tooth. I'll forgive his felony convictions and say "commit the crime, do the time, move on" and buy from someone if that's all it is. To falsify your military record, especially to make yourself look like a bonafide hero just to aggrandize your reputation puts you beyond the pale to me. From a father who served in the 8th Army Air Corps in WWII to a brother who is on full disability from his service in Desert Storm, I take too much pride in my country's military to allow such a thing to go unchallenged. I've heard some of his supporters ask if I expect him to give up his business and go work in a factory in seclusion for the rest of his life. I don't really care what he does, but I know that any company he starts and supports won't get any of my business. I believe in the idea of redemption, but I have seen too little from him to believe that he has any remorse for what he's done with regards to his lies. Honor has to be earned, and I can't really see him doing anything realistically in the business world to show me that he has any.

What say ye? Can a company who has lost your favor ever regain it?

 

[donny bee]

Fallkniven most likely socialists " not sure" but if thats the truth it would hard to find someone more anti that then myself, however the s-1 and f-1 are super fantastic, couldnt say anything negative about the knives they create.Same goes for the ak-47.

 

[bradpierson26]

Yes of course it matters to me.

This is why I buy Spyderco products, even though most of the blades are as ugly as sin. Sal is a great guy and the company rocks.

hmmm...not to be negative but the knife steel, appearance, ergos, handle etc comes first and the companies ethics are secondary.

 

[A.P.F.]

...Cold Steel gets a lot of complaints as a company because people despise the way they market their products, the fact that so many of their knife designs appear to be stolen from other makers, the fact that Lynn Thompson can be so abrasive etc. Can those of you who dislike CS imagine anything they could do to make you one of their customers?...

Cold Steel is an interesting case. For many moons I have held a poor opinion of their company and knives. In my mind, there was no way in hell that I would buy one of their products as I thought that their marketing was 'over the top' and hence their product quality must follow suit. My resolve was shaken however, when one day my favorite knife dealer gave me a Cold Steel 'Sharkie'. The Sharkie is in fact a fine tip permanent marker, that has been reinforced with a heavy jacket of FRN. The idea is that the Sharkie can be used as a yawara stick, which it most certainly can. As I examined the quality of design and build of the Sharkie, the thought crossed my mind that it may be possible that I have underestimated CS products.

With the above in mind, I plunked down $200 CDN and picked up a Titanium Ti-Lite. My discovery was that the Ti-Lite is just as well made as any of my other knives and is well designed and executed. In fact, it bumped my CF Millie as my EDC. So in essence, I have had to overcome my prejudice and eat my words where Cold Steel is concerned.

...What say ye? Can a company who has lost your favor ever regain it?

Sure. I just remember the adage, 'Let he among you who is without sin, cast the first stone.'

 

[Bastid]

Chuck summed things up as far as my feelings. After a couple or more decades of face to face encounters with makers and company representatives, I would much rather support the vast majority who give back to the community, represent it well and conduct themselves with the level of integrity that is the norm of the experience I have had.

As a matter of fact, that aspect of the community holding a higher standard of ethics than seen in any other area I have experienced is one of the aspects of knives that has kept me around for 40+ years.

I guess many views are influenced by the level of experience and participation in the industry, art and community. If all I had was an interest in was a few knives, I might feel differently.

If I am buying a knife as a work of art or collectors item that I might someday want to sell and not take a bath on, you can bet that the person behind the knife is important in that decision. Spending a thousand or several thousand on anything without considering where it came and the background of who made it is pretty short sighted in my opinion whether it is a knife or a hvac system.

 

[hardheart]

How much does anybody really know about the ethics of their favorite makers? Do you really want to put every maker under the microscope? If you're willing to cut Stewart or Spyderco or Buck some slack, and not others, simply because they give you warm fuzzy feelings, you're a hypocrite. And if you decide to apply some ridiculous ethical standard rigidly across the board, it just kind of makes you a nutty crusader.

All this stuff strikes me as a way for some folks to justify the drama of their personal knife nuttery. Knife nut Joe hates Brand X knives because they look like copies of precious Brand Y. But that's not good enough, so Brand X is now unethical! No, immoral! Thieves! Or whatever emotion laden descriptor that can be dredged up, all for the sake of buttressing someone's personal tastes over knives.

I don't care about that stuff, I mentioned I don't like tactics that inflate prices. I don't need to put someone under the microscope for that, it is their public claims that affect pricing. Puffing up a false identity to drive demand, claiming some mystic thermal treatment, or just plain lying about the steel used.

Yes Ethics does have an effect on what knives I will buy. That said, my personal experience with said maker will also determine this. 4 Cases in point:

1) I know all about Mick Strider's military service issues that have been hashed out here. I've also read his post over on his forum where he addressed them. If I had never met him, talked to him, and seen some of his generosity extended to soldiers & their families, I might not buy his knives. Instead, due to my own personal experience, I've bought a few Strider Knives.

2) My opinion started to sour with them when they (or should it read Camillius) changed the steel used in Carbon V. I'd had an original SRK that I'd given to a friend and when I went to get a new one, it did not feel the same. When I asked Cold Steel about it, they responded there was no difference between the 2. Technically you could say they did not "lie" to me since in truth it was still Carbon V steel.

Cold Steel, among others, also gives away knives to our military, so I'm not sure what Strider did that was so awesome, other than be charming to your face.

And Carbon V is CS's name for a Camillus steel developed by Dan Maragni, which has a couple other names, but is 50100-B. You got two knives with different heat treats at most. Unless you got an alloy analysis done to say that the steels were actually different.

 

[Willieboy]

Sure do. There are plenty of honest decent people with whom to do business. Don't need to work with less than honorable people.

 

[harkamus]

It matters to me. I used to have a healthy respect for Dalton, just as an example. When I found some knives on an online retailer that bore racist designs on his knives, I thought twice about the kind of person Dalton is. I was surprised to find out that someone made a thread about this on the forums, although several weeks later than when I noticed the knives on that particular website.

This is just an example of what I don't tolerate. As one guy put it in that thread, those symbols just perpetuate hatred. Nevermind that his knives are quality pieces. They are tarnished in my eyes by what he puts on them.