Does any one out there have any simmons hardware or keen kutter knives?

Well preserved knife. I had guessed that the knives with etched pattern numbers were newer than the ones without pattern numbers (well preserved without pattern numbers, not worn off). But it's just a guess. Would be interested in hearing more about your theory.
 
Well preserved knife. I had guessed that the knives with etched pattern numbers were newer than the ones without pattern numbers (well preserved without pattern numbers, not worn off). But it's just a guess. Would be interested in hearing more about your theory.

Actually, theory may be too strong a word for what I was thinking. It is more of a feeling, or a guess, based on a small sample size. I also believe that the knives without pattern numbers (well preserved without pattern numbers) are earlier knives as well. However, I was kind of lumping the no pattern numbers and the etched pattern numbers together as Walden made knives. I would not argue with your feeling that the ones with no pattern numbers are earlier than the ones with the pattern number etch. I have 2 Simmons Hardware Co. knives and 1 EC Simmons St Louis knife in good condition, with strong Keen Kutter blade etch, and no pattern number.

I have 14 KKs that I am reasonably sure are Walden made (based on the dates given by Sellens). Of these, 6 have a pattern number etch and 8 have none. Of the 8 with no pattern number etch, 4 are in good condition, with strong blade etch, and I assume never had a pattern number. None of what I consider my Walden made knives have a stamped pattern number.

I have 7 KKs that I am reasonably sure are Winchester made (again based on the dates given by in Sellens). All 7 have a stamped pattern number.

I have 21 KKs for which the dates, given by Sellens, span both sides of the 1922 to 1924 range for the changeover from Walden to Winchester (my most recently posted K2245 is one of these. Of these, 4 have no pattern number (older knives, pattern etch may have been worn off?), 5 have a pattern number etch, and 12 have a stamped pattern number. Winchester and Simmons merged (or Winchester bought Simmons?) in 1922, but the Walden Knife Co. was not dissolved until September 1923. I would assume that during the changeover, some knives continued to be made in the Walden facility even after Winchester became involved.

Back to the K2245, Sellens would date it to 1924 to 1929, based on the cocobolo handle and the crest shield) However, Simmons did not put out a catalog in 1923. There was a 1921/1922 catalog and a 1924 catalog. I am speculating (I am aware that it is probably a wild speculation), that my particular K2245 may have been made in the Walden facility in 1923 and first appeared (with the cocobolo handles and crest shield) in the 1924 catalog.

So to summarize: I believe that Walden made KKs have either no pattern number, or an etched pattern number. Winchester made KKs have a stamped pattern number. Camillus made KKs have a stamped pattern number which is preceded by a K. I know that this is based on a extremely small sample size. However, I study every KK, in good condition, listed on ebay or posted in this forum or other forums. I have been meaning for some time to create a data base of KKs from ebay (I do save photos from the ebay auctions for most of the good condition KKs) and the forums, but have not gotten around to it yet.

I do rely quite heavily on Sellens for dates for the various pattern numbers. He had access to every catalog Simmons put out, and, in my opinion, organized an excellent guide to the patterns. However, I do not consider Sellens to be an infallible guide. Simmons did not put out a catalog every year. There are numerous gaps of 3 to 4 consecutive years between catalog issues (1904 - 1908, 1908 - 1912, no 1916, no 1923, 1924 - 1927, 1927 - 1930, 1930 - 1935 and 1935 to 1939).
I believe that there are very likely variations of some of the patterns (handle material, shield types, coined liners etc) that were produced during the gaps in catalogs and did not make it into Sellens guide.

I would prefer to have access to all of the catalogs myself, however, the asking price for old Simmons catalogs puts them out of my price range. I have PDFs of part of the cutlery sections from the 1912 and 1917 catalogs, and also a reprint of the cutlery sections from the 1930 catalog.

Sorry for the long winded post. Please feel free to comment and criticize my "theory".
 
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it. It's not something that I had researched but I find it interesting. As I find time, I will see if I can dig out any catalogs from storage that may be of help.

Actually, theory may be too strong a word for what I was thinking. It is more of a feeling, or a guess, based on a small sample size. I also believe that the knives without pattern numbers (well preserved without pattern numbers) are earlier knives as well. However, I was kind of lumping the no pattern numbers and the etched pattern numbers together as Walden made knives. I would not argue with your feeling that the ones with no pattern numbers are earlier than the ones with the pattern number etch. I have 2 Simmons Hardware Co. knives and 1 EC Simmons St Louis knife in good condition, with strong Keen Kutter blade etch, and no pattern number.

I have 14 KKs that I am reasonably sure are Walden made (based on the dates given by Sellens). Of these, 6 have a pattern number etch and 8 have none. Of the 8 with no pattern number etch, 4 are in good condition, with strong blade etch, and I assume never had a pattern number. None of what I consider my Walden made knives have a stamped pattern number.

I have 7 KKs that I am reasonably sure are Winchester made (again based on the dates given by in Sellens). All 7 have a stamped pattern number.

I have 21 KKs for which the dates, given by Sellens, span both sides of the 1922 to 1924 range for the changeover from Walden to Winchester (my most recently posted K2245 is one of these. Of these, 4 have no pattern number (older knives, pattern etch may have been worn off?), 5 have a pattern number etch, and 12 have a stamped pattern number. Winchester and Simmons merged (or Winchester bought Simmons?) in 1922, but the Walden Knife Co. was not dissolved until September 1923. I would assume that during the changeover, some knives continued to be made in the Walden facility even after Winchester became involved.

Back to the K2245, Sellens would date it to 1924 to 1929, based on the cocobolo handle and the crest shield) However, Simmons did not put out a catalog in 1923. There was a 1921/1922 catalog and a 1924 catalog. I am speculating (I am aware that it is probably a wild speculation), that my particular K2245 may have been made in the Walden facility in 1923 and first appeared (with the cocobolo handles and crest shield) in the 1924 catalog.

So to summarize: I believe that Walden made KKs have either no pattern number, or an etched pattern number. Winchester made KKs have a stamped pattern number. Camillus made KKs have a stamped pattern number which is preceded by a K. I know that this is based on a extremely small sample size. However, I study every KK, in good condition, listed on ebay or posted in this forum or other forums. I have been meaning for some time to create a data base of KKs from ebay (I do save photos from the ebay auctions for most of the good condition KKs) and the forums, but have not gotten around to it yet.

I do rely quite heavily on Sellens for dates for the various pattern numbers. He had access to every catalog Simmons put out, and, in my opinion, organized an excellent guide to the patterns. However, I do not consider Sellens to be an infallible guide. Simmons did not put out a catalog every year. There are numerous gaps of 3 to 4 consecutive years between catalog issues (1904 - 1908, 1908 - 1912, no 1916, no 1923, 1924 - 1927, 1927 - 1930, 1930 - 1935 and 1935 to 1939).
I believe that there are very likely variations of some of the patterns (handle material, shield types, coined liners etc) that were produced during the gaps in catalogs and did not make it into Sellens guide.

I would prefer to have access to all of the catalogs myself, however, the asking price for old Simmons catalogs puts them out of my price range. I have PDFs of part of the cutlery sections from the 1912 and 1917 catalogs, and also a reprint of the cutlery sections from the 1930 catalog.

Sorry for the long winded post. Many of you will probably consider me to be full of pickled porcupine poop, or worse. Please feel free to comment and criticize as harshly as you feel is necessary.
 
Great thread, indeed. Wish I'd found it earlier..I recently purchased and "fooled" myself w/ one of these in pearl.

Here is a Simmons. But I think it was made in Germany. Maybe Someone can chime in on the history of these knives?
IMG_20180221_141047706.jpg

IMG_20180221_141001977.jpg

IMG_20180221_141015679.jpg
Invoice, nice knife, but not likely old. Simmons Hardware Co. did have some knives manufactured in Germany. Goins says from 1890 to 1940. They do have the same tang stamp as yours. They also had a stylized hornet stamped on the back of every blade. However, I was informed, by a very knowledgable member over on AAPK, that the knives with the deep HORNET stamp on the main blade were supposedly a Jim Parker factory find from the early 2000s. They were supposedly put together at the Olbertz factory in Germany from old parts, found by Parker. This includes the doctors knife posted in my first post today, I was fooled.
Dan

@Invoice ..do you still have this? Do you use it? How is the quality ?
 
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I may have showed it earlier, but I have one of the German Hornets in a stockman, very high quality.
3½" with excellent action, made by Olbertz/Parker in the early 1990s. Nicely fitted, good warm, well-matched stag,
beautifully domed pins, excellent values.

IjcSDDL.jpg

oXXyJP3.jpg
 
Thanks for the post, black mamba. Grwat looking stag on that...Mine is the same, although I believe it's 3 7/8", in pearl, but, same blade etch and tang stamps..from Olbertz/Parker..assuming from '90's.

Encouraged to hear you are happy w/ the quality and value. They look really well made w/ great FF in images I've seen. Thought I might have gotten "beat"..but if the quality is there, I'm ok w/ what I paid.



Thanks again for the post and details..
 
That is a steal, thank you for disclosing.

I'm into mine for about twice that...maybe I didn't get beat too badly..+3yrs ( not sure these are even appreciating) +1/2", + pearl..which I think is around the same added value as good stag...as yours seems to have..Sound like you got a screaming deal on that one even three years ago..

I'm ok paying a little more if the quality is there. Chalk it up to the price of education. I can see why some stick to GECs..which I love and make up most of my traditionals. Truly outstanding quality and value I'm appreciating as I learn..

There is something about the vintage stuff that I'm absolutely drawn to...a lot to learn w/ these older traditionals..more so than any other style of knife I've been interested in thus far...
 
To me the quality of mine is very, very close to a GEC, and a 3-blade GEC in pearl would be at least $150, probably more, so you still got a good deal. The price paid is only relevant if you intend to sell it. If you really like the knife, then who cares what you paid?
 
Couldn't agree more...that is my thinking as well, on values and purpose. I'm not in this for profit..in fact, I often lose monies just to feed the addiction..I honestly plan to keep every knife I purchase...don't alway end up that way, but..I'm having fun, love learning...have and had other hobbies far more expensive and far less frugal as far as enjoyment/cost ratio...

Very much appreciate your feedback.
 
Thanks!

I can't state enough have really nice this is. I had read, after the purchase and before it arrived, that the Parkers were of significant less quality than the prior productions.

This one is more than sound, don't see what could have been done better. Grinds, cover fit, springs...all tight as a drum. The blade etching and tang stamps are crisp, deep and centered and as stated..the blade grinds are outstanding. Zero gaps, zero wobble..secondary blade are a bit lazy..other that that..straight as an arrow.

The real suprise was just how much color the pearl has, there is color from head to toe on both covers..pinks and greens to blue....these pics aren't great..but better show some of the color than the images I had for reference on the listing.

Hard to really capture, for me anyway,,,but the covers are like two big slabs of Opal.

I'll be adding more of these for sure..

Thanks again, black mamba for your input.

QTmy7LP.jpg

VJdAKHf.jpg


This one just to show the blade grind and deep clean etch.

rpa0D3e.jpg
 
Just got this one and would like more info from you guys please. It shows in the 1939 KK catalog posted in the “Vintage knife catalogs & ads” sticky thread. Would like to know who made it, Camillus? It’s stamped on main blade ec simmons with ears/horns, can’t see below if it says St Loius MO or Made in USA or if anything at all? On back of main blade, it’s stamped K 533/4. On the small pen blade, there aren’t any stamps, maybe worn out but I don’t see any traces of stamps. Also the swedge on the main clip blade is only on the front, not on back, anyone has a clue why? Would love to hear from you guys. Thanks in advance!



 
I'm no help on the dating, but the swedge only on one side is not uncommon. The swedge is on the side of the main that the secondary passes.
 
Nice blade, that bone is beautiful.

I can't offer much myself in the way of dating but the little I've found is that your tang stamp is from early production, I believe...desired and of high quality.

Found this previously and I know there are some blade tang charts out there, if not in the linked thread. .AAPK has some good archived info on the brand as well as some very knowledgable members on board here.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/keen-kutter-and-shapleigh-finds.1148476/
 
Just got this one and would like more info from you guys please. It shows in the 1939 KK catalog posted in the “Vintage knife catalogs & ads” sticky thread. Would like to know who made it, Camillus? It’s stamped on main blade ec simmons with ears/horns, can’t see below if it says St Loius MO or Made in USA or if anything at all? On back of main blade, it’s stamped K 533/4. On the small pen blade, there aren’t any stamps, maybe worn out but I don’t see any traces of stamps. Also the swedge on the main clip blade is only on the front, not on back, anyone has a clue why? Would love to hear from you guys. Thanks in advance!




Nice knife, Nick!:thumbsup: Sellens says it was in the catalogs from 1939 to 1942. Yours would have been made prior to July 1940 (when Shapleigh bought Simmons Hardware and the EC Simmons in the tang stamp was discontinued). The ears on the wedge and the K in the stamped pattern numbers are both indications that it was manufactured by Camillus.
 
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