dont touch that factory edge !!!!

richard j said:
this forum would be a lot nicer without the trolls thats for sure.
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What's your definition of a troll? Someone who doesn't not agree with everything you preach as fact? This isn't richardj.com, this is blade forums, we come here to discuss knives, sharpening etc.. Discuss. Not listen to how to pieces of spinning cardboard can cure cancer and everything you do is the right way. I'm sure your knives are sharp, I purchased a knife that you had convexed as well, it was very sharp, a very nice job. Guess what... It didn't last ANY longer than the high polished convex edge I gave another copy of the same chopper.

Here is the knife, very sharp, but toothy, and the "micro serrations" dulled quickly.

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I'm not a fan of toothy edges, give me some DMT plates and some diamond compound and I'll keep my "wire edges" that are going to roll.

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I'm glad, honestly Richard, we disagree about a lot of things, but I do respect you. You're a great sharpener, and like I said, one of the most helpful members on this forum. A lot more helpful than me actually. I don't have the patience.
 
Originally Posted by richard j View Post
i have a knife i made that i can chop down a tree and still shave hair and push cut newspaper.
... and then you wake up, right?

Stitchawl
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Actually the next step after chopping and shaving is bending! I do have video. Well, of the chopping and bending, not the shaving. I can't prove that it shaved, except that you wouldn't bother bending if you didn't pass the shaving. Not my knife, nor my edge, but it's pretty common to be able to chop and still shave. And, yes, it is the same part of the blade shaving that was used to chop. It's in the rules that it has to be the same part of the blade.

I was discussing this topic with my son the other day. I explained to him that there are different types of edges for different purposes. There are also different steels for different purposes that match one edge better than another. As thin and sharp as possible for a chef knife is preferred. The same edge on a camp knife or hunter would be foolish. Likewise, using L6 steel for a kitchen knife probably isn't the best choice, but it's a great choice for a machete. If an eleven year old can understand this, why can't people who've been doing this for years?

[youtube]rC0v2hY5zBs[/youtube]
[youtube]ABxMRpL9NXU[/youtube]
 
gentlemen,
as for the OP, he's bringing a lot of information and help to this forum, which is much appreciated by me and by many others.

I've never seen a paperwheel up close, but am constantly reminded that they are god's gift to knife sharpeners.

I'm not a religious guy....

As for Stitchawl, sorry buddy, you're wrong. I can cut up a 1 inch tree and shave after that :D A soft 2x4 is not a tree people, give some more specifics so we judge here.. I am a bladesports practitioner and can cut up a 2x4 and shave.
But cutting up a tree implies a little more for me 2.

I respect stitchawl pretty much and imo he has given a lot of info here in this forum too and is very knowledgeable.

Calling him a troll is funny since there is a whole bunch of them defending the op.

I also find fault in some of the statements presented here.
But I also find lots of good info.
thanks for that
 
zyhano said:
gentlemen,
as for the OP, he's bringing a lot of information and help to this forum, which is much appreciated by me and by many others.

I've never seen a paperwheel up close, but am constantly reminded that they are god's gift to knife sharpeners.

I'm not a religious guy....

As for Stitchawl, sorry buddy, you're wrong. I can cut up a 1 inch tree and shave after that :D A soft 2x4 is not a tree people, give some more specifics so we judge here.. I am a bladesports practitioner and can cut up a 2x4 and shave.
But cutting up a tree implies a little more for me 2.

I respect stitchawl pretty much and imo he has given a lot of info here in this forum too and is very knowledgeable.

Calling him a troll is funny since there is a whole bunch of them defending the op.

I also find fault in some of the statements presented here.
But I also find lots of good info.
thanks for that
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I think that the definition of troll fits if they follow a pattern. If you do not like the post or disagree with the post, simply move on if you have nothing productive to add.

Before I get accused of defending the op because I have some sort of "paper wheel" fetish, let me inform you now..I do not own a paper wheel, cardboard wheel or otherwise. I have no preference on what tool I use to sharpen...I have many of the tools that you guys defend vehemently..From DMT dia-sharp plates, Edgepro Apex, Spyderco, Gatco and even a KMG that I built. As a machinist, I do not depend on one tool to get the job done. I pull from a variety of tools, depending on what I have at hand. Really, it would be silly to limit yourself to have one tool as the be-all-end-all.

So, I have no investment personally in the OP- He, as well as others have given great information in a variety of threads, including some that have posted in this thread. If you have some sort of issue and don't like a certain poster, just do yourself a favor and place them on ignore. :thumbup:
 
zaph1 said:
If an eleven year old can understand this, why can't people who've been doing this for years?
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Can you explain why on earth someone would give a hoot how a knife bends? I've always thought that was a completely useless test. That's one thing I've never understood. I must be missing something....
 
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I'm still a non believer on the "don't touch that factory edge" rule. Think of it this way. Once upon a time, Buck made knives with their stock edge bevels. Then one day, they came up with the revolutionary new system, Edge 2x™ Technology! Translated, Edge 2x™ technology was a thinner, more acute edge bevel. Which really was an improvement!

Kudos to Buck for recognizing that knives with thinner, more acute edge bevels make better knives. Sadly, too many other manufacturers have yet to learn this lesson. Until they do, if they can be improved by reprofiling, then so be it.
 
sodak said:
Can you explain why on earth someone would give a hoot how a knife bends? I've always thought that was a completely useless test. That's one thing I've never understood. I must be missing something....
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There is a misconception that a good knife must be able to bend to 90 deg. and not break. I've seen this stated by a handful of makers and they test their knives accordingly, and go through a lot of effort to give those knives the ability to bend that way. The way it is supposed to read is that a good smith should be able to make a knife that can bend. It's a test of the smith and his/her ability to control the forging and heat treating processes.

PS: My puukko style blade made from the 1" by 0.055" saw blades you sent me will pass the 90 deg flex test with ease, and will return to straight. I'm currently up to 10 alternating flexes with no sign of cracking, bending, etc.
 
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shecky said:
I'm still a non believer on the "don't touch that factory edge" rule. Think of it this way. Once upon a time, Buck made knives with their stock edge bevels. Then one day, they came up with the revolutionary new system, Edge 2x™ Technology! Translated, Edge 2x™ technology was a thinner, more acute edge bevel. Which really was an improvement!

Kudos to Buck for recognizing that knives with thinner, more acute edge bevels make better knives. Sadly, too many other manufacturers have yet to learn this lesson. Until they do, if they can be improved by reprofiling, then so be it.
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The concept that I can agree with most in this thread is what I quoted earlier and is the first line in the OP. What is more you and your post are basically giving testimony to it.

Buck changed their bevel to something more to your liking...it is a good thing that you tried it first before reprofiling it...otherwise you might not have realized that sometimes the factory does a good job.

That is all I am saying. Not taking sides, not trolling, not fighting. Just saying that people need to test for themselves...and that requires trying out the factory edge AND perhaps a few other grinds and finishes...take notes...design some standardized testing of your own that is pertinent to what YOU use a knife for. Only after you do this can you intelligently talk about your preferences...and once you realize your preferences you will likely understand that they are somewhat unique and while defensible, there is no need to argue them with someone else who may have different preferences and needs.

Have a fantastic day.
 
I agree try the factory edge. Then try and improve it. You will soon see just how crappy almost all factory edges really are. Keeping the factory edge and or angle shouldn't be the goal. I really think with just a little bit of work and learning everyone can greatly improve almost any factory edge out there. Personally my type of edge probably isn't the best for alot of people. I like thin and sharp. I've never even used a knife to chop down a tree, nor do I want one that will. However my edges will cut everything I use my knife for and they last a long time. Heck I touch up the edge before it really needs it. I'm so much happier with my hand sharpened edges than any factory edge I've had I can't see why anyone would settle for a factory edge ever.
 
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bhyde said:
... If you do not like the post or disagree with the post, simply move on if you have nothing productive to add...
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Then enlighten us all as to why "discussions" are needed at all. Why not just take whatever is posted at face value and consider it gospel?:jerk it:





Sorry, guess I shouldn't have posted this comment should I?:foot: I should be a good boy and just move along.:rolleyes: Ain't likely to happen.:p





FWIW, I agree with RichardJ on the first point he makes about trying it first, why go to the time and hassle of re-profiling for no good reason?
Just my opinion (and we all know the saying about them, right?), but personally I think his assertion that 400 grit is good enough just doesn't hold water. Yes, it will cut and probably cut well, but it won't be as good as it can be. To give an extreme exaggeration of an example, I dare anyone to try field dressing an animal with a serrated blade. I don't care HOW sharp it is, it is going to make a mess. Now, take a nicely polished edge that has been finished up to 1600 grit or higher, and it will slide thru flesh and skin like it isn't even there. That pretty much (for ME) answers the question of whether a "toothy" edge is better than a smooth on.

As far as I'm concerned, the only use for "toothy" is if you cut lots of cardboard, and even then I'm not sure if it truly is better than a finely finished edge.
 
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Resharpening at a factory angle is fine if you don't care particularly about how the edge performs. This isn't said in a demeaning way, as on many knives I want them sharp, but am unconcerned about whether I could get a few percent more cutting efficiency out of it. In many cases, there just isn't enough reason to justify the effort of reprofiling a blade. If I used a powered system I may think differently, but consider it carefully when working by hand.

Most that would reprofile a blade immediately would know pretty much on sight whether a blade would work for them or not... it is fairly obvious. I have a pretty good idea of which knives would work for me as well, I don't have to use every one to find out if it will work or not.

The debate of toothy vs. fine edges is a joke. Each excels in a certain area, and neither is magic. Applying a 'best' grit size has been done before as well, and realistically, NO ONE is right. There are vocal proponents of 180-360g edges, some who like horsehide which has a grit size a tiny fraction of a micron, and others who can't understand exactly what it is they are doing when they sharpen. Each of those has come upon a method that works well for them and their needs, often after trying many others. The reality is that there is no best. Heavy knife vs. light knife, long vs. short, big knife vs. hatchet, etc., etc., ad nauseum. Making blanket statements doesn't make a person a guru, just offers others the opportunity to show where the statement is wrong.

As far as calling "troll", a bunch of people need to grow up. Being a forum, every post on here is moderated by others with differing areas and levels of experience. The idea that every post disagreed with should be passed over is BS. If I claimed that 'so and so' custom knives were garbage, there would be plenty who would chime in to agree or disagree. That is the point. The purpose of a forum isn't to be a virtual shouting match, where those who talk the most or loudest are right, but to offer a variety of opinions for each ones personal review. If you can't cope with a variety of opinions, you need to stick to a fanboy club or something.

This thread has a variety of opinions, if you want to make yours count, don't call everyone around you a troll, just show what your opinion is and what facts led you to it. If it is sound, others will come around. If it is wrong, or others feel it is, it will come out. Life goes on, and everyone is free to make their own decision.

Richard, you have made several posts in this forum that I have been impressed with, but the issue that seems to plague you is that often others disagree with part of your statement, which is their prerogative. Rather than call them a troll, you might do well to look at what part of the statement they disagree with, and understand why. Maybe you're right, maybe they are, maybe you're both right. There is nothing wrong with anyone here disagreeing with anything.
 
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I’ll attempt to sum this up from MY perspective…

First off, any self respecting knife enthusiast knows that 80% of factory edges are crap. They are the product of mass production and are in no way “optimized” for the intended uses or for getting the most out of a particular blade steel. If you are not at a level of knowledge or experience to appreciate this level of difference then sure, go with the out of the box edge because that is probably better than what you can achieve on your own. Hopefully it’s “sharp”. LMAO. But seriously, how many threads have been posted about member’s disappointment in the factory edge?! I’ve read more than one thread that was accusatory of the company because of how lousy the out of the box sharpness was! Personally, I EXPECT to sharpen, or at least “touch up” ANY knife I buy. Sure, try it/use it, but don’t judge the knife or the maker by it! If you can’t sharpen a friggin’ knife you don’t deserve to have one! When my grandfather gave me my first knife (a Remington made Boy Scout) he also gave me an Arkansas oil stone and showed me how to use it.



The thing that everybody has seemed to dance around or miss is that…
Richard seems to think/associate a finely honed edge as “weak”. i.e. “it will roll easily”. That’s why he always chimes in and pushes his toothy/coarse edges whenever the topic presents itself.

Well, that’s bull shit. The fineness of the edge only IMPROVES the strength of it. All of those “teeth” are merely weak points on the edge that are subject to wear or “chipping” off! This is not subject to debate because it is simple physics. It’s all about “point loads” vs. spreading the force out. It has been PROVEN that a finely honed edge keeps its edge longer. It should be obvious/logical when you look at a highly magnified image of an edge. What IS debatable is whether your uses/applications require a finely honed edge in the first place and whether or not you want/need to invest the time to achieve a ½ micron edge. It’s really splitting hairs on how much “extra” you get out of all the effort you put into honing ever so finer and I think that is where some of the debate/confusion comes in too. If you beat the hell out of your edges why bother? I get that but don’t get on your soap box and tell me the coarser edge is “better”.

Also, of great importance, is that many here confuse “fineness” of the EDGE FINISH with “fineness” of the sharpened ANGLE.

*THEY ARE TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS.*

The degree of angle that an edge is sharpened to GREATLY affects its “durability” and how it holds up to “hard use”. That’s the primary reason factory edges come so obtuse! An edge sharpened to a 20° inclusive angle is MUCH more fragile and prone to “rolling” than an edge honed to 50° inclusive. Once again, this is simply physics people. Not open to much debate.



...later peeps/keep 'em sharp.
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Any Cal. said:
As far as calling "troll", a bunch of people need to grow up. Being a forum, every post on here is moderated by others with differing areas and levels of experience. The idea that every post disagreed with should be passed over is BS. If I claimed that 'so and so' custom knives were garbage, there would be plenty who would chime in to agree or disagree. That is the point. The purpose of a forum isn't to be a virtual shouting match, where those who talk the most or loudest are right, but to offer a variety of opinions for each ones personal review. If you can't cope with a variety of opinions, you need to stick to a fanboy club or something.

This thread has a variety of opinions, if you want to make yours count, don't call everyone around you a troll, just show what your opinion is and what facts led you to it. If it is sound, others will come around. If it is wrong, or others feel it is, it will come out. Life goes on, and everyone is free to make their own decision.
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He didn't mean pass over the post completely by saying "unless you have something productive". He meant, don't respond with some sarcastic one-liner, veiled insult, drive-by post.

Actually, his intention was completely the opposite of your interpretation in bold. What he meant was, if you don't have a mature, useful, contributive reply as a counterpoint to a point you disagree with, then don't bother posting at all.

Useful and mature counterpoint = debate

Sarcastic one line drive-by post = trolling

Please keep in mind, trolling can also come in the form of paragraphs... but usually this is just a bunch of the sarcastic one-liners I mentioned above, but strung together in an attempt to make the post look like an actual useful reply.


TimWilson said:
Then enlighten us all as to why "discussions" are needed at all. Why not just take whatever is posted at face value and consider it gospel?:jerk it:
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Please see above explanation. "if you have nothing productive to add" does NOT mean "completely ignore if you disagree". It means... don't be a troll.
 
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