dont touch that factory edge !!!!

To exactly Richards initial point, MOST people are able to buy knives. VERY few are qualified to go any where near a sharpener let alone re-profile a blade. They certainly have the right to attempt it but that will very quickly translate to the right to own a damaged knife.
I know many intelligent capable folks who have the means to buy nice knives and they promptly ruined them by trying to sharpen them.
It is with the advent of guided systems that the neophite (and his knives) were saved.
For most..... the best advice is Leave it alone.
I think some forget just how difficult it is to do well what they now look at as second nature.
 
To exactly Richards initial point, MOST people are able to buy knives. VERY few are qualified to go any where near a sharpener let alone re-profile a blade. They certainly have the right to attempt it but that will very quickly translate to the right to own a damaged knife.
I know many intelligent capable folks who have the means to buy nice knives and they promptly ruined them by trying to sharpen them.
It is with the advent of guided systems that the neophite (and his knives) were saved.
For most..... the best advice is Leave it alone.
I think some forget just how difficult it is to do well what they now look at as second nature.

I don't really agree with that. While there is a great amount of skill and experience needed to make some edges at some times, at other times all that's really needed is a lot of care and patience. Just because a person can sharpen a knife really well does not mean they have some kind of raw talent that makes their skills incomparable with the rest of society--though their results often are. To put it simply, sharpening/reprofiling is really not that hard, it just takes critical thinking, patience and practice. Critical thinking accounts for knowing what is being done to the edge, and usually only really requires a person put on their thinking cap--things such as a burr seem academic to some, but to the person thinking critically about what they are doing, they should be obvious. I even knew what the burr was and what it told me when I was a child and never even heard of the burr or knew what to call it, it was just evident what was being done to the blade and how that effected the edge I was trying to form. The patience side of things comes in being able to apply a consistent technique, and not switch from one thing or another trying to make haste, even if progress is very slow and/or if the results don't come out like you'd like the first time--sometimes patience seems like the wrong word, it's almost more like having faith in the conclusions you came to with your thinking despite the fact that progress might be too slow to affirm them quickly. Then of course the real trick is to not practice sharpening, but to practice both the critical thinking and the patience; becoming better at the sharpening itself will come with repetition and experience. This is really true with a lot of skills that require a high level of detail and craftsmanship, so sharpening isn't any different.

I've reprofiled a lot of factory edges just to see how thinning the edge would help--a lot of it is the simple idea of, "Well, this knife steel is S30V, and 40 degrees inclusive is probably much more than it needs to remain as stout as I need it, so I'm going to just go ahead and try 30 degrees." Sometimes I've tried it on knives where the steel was just not going to play along, and then had to thicken the edge out again and that kind of sucks, but overall I don't see a reason why a person shouldn't play with it. As long as they want to invest the time in sharpening it, what's wrong with having a little trial and error?

Personally I've started to shy away from the "thinner is better" concept, because I've found the only place it's really any better to me is when I'm doing something like whittling hairs. On the other hand, if I get clumsy and run my edge into something hard, having one of these more obtuse angles that the factories like to use really helps in edge retention. Personally I think a lot of people asserting, "Well, factories just want the edges to be able to take a lot of abuse for people that don't know how to use a knife," are really looking at it in their own perspective. How about guys like me that aren't the most skilled in the world that might accidentally run their blade into something hard and would rather it be quick to grind out than very long, and just to salvage an edge geometry that for me doesn't really increase performance that much. It's just not really worth it to reprofile sometimes, and for me at least I sometimes find those factory bevels to be better because they're a lot more difficult to mess up and work just as well for the actual practical applications I need them for.

That's not to say that I don't think every factory edge could use a little TLC regardless of edge geometry. Edge finish and coarseness? Well, I don't want to get into that little argument--I don't know enough about the subject. I'm sure I could reiterate all the stuff about "microserrations" everyone has heard, but I think it just boils down to personal preference when it comes to how fine the edge should be polished, and I think the difference in edge retention and wear resistance for each are a little misunderstood. For example, if I take one of my highly polished knives that can whittle hair and I start cutting up cardboard, wood, and whatever tough-but-not-insane material I can get my hands on, I will probably find that I've put quite a few dents and dings into the apex of the edge because it was honed so fine, but when you actually think about how keen the edge is even at that ding it doesn't really matter, it's just not going to be as smooth as a cut. On the contrary, with a toothy edge, those types of dings and dents aren't encountered as often. I don't really have any comments on either in terms of wear resistance and how long the edge keeps coming, but at a certain point that becomes irrelevant to me anyway since I usually touch my edges up far before they have a noticeable decrease in performance.

Anyway, what was I saying again? Oh, yeah, I still think factory edges could use a little extra care. They're usually a bit uneven, the bevel faces are usually pretty convex, etc. I usually like to even these types of things up, even though I'm not thinning or thickening the overall geometry. This can really account for a lot of metal removal though so it is akin to reprofiling, and is probably one of the few things that an unskilled, novice sharpener probably couldn't benefit from because their bevels might come out as uneven and convex as the factory's, but on the other hand I think most users are able to judge whether or not they'd do a better job.
 
If I trusted the likes of Queen, Benchmade and various other domestic makers to send me a sharp knife I might as well carry a nail with a fancy handle...I consider a GOOD sharpen job on most knives paramount, Queen and Benchmade I named to shame so they up their game or leave the blade with no edge profile at all! I'll finish it off.

Dont get me wrong, my fav knife I own is made by Queen cutlery but they do not have a clue how to sharpen their product.
 
Most knife company sharpen by hand and do not have any set factory sharpening angle on there knives they are all at different degrees or at least not the same from one knife to the next. Spyderco I think has the best factory edges and the least to gain from trying to improve on them on less you a master at sharpening.
Sharpening wheels are one of the best system for people to get hair shaving edges for those of us that are do not have time to get a sharp edge by hand.
Why some people are so against them is a mystery to me. I also think this sub forum was better before a group of experts decided to attack any thing that has paper wheels in it.
 
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i think a lot of knife companys need to improve on their edges or better yet, teach the people who do the sharpening how to do a better job by having them use what they sharpen. in the long run it might help the companys reputation if they are known for sending out dull knives.

i wonder how many hire someone off the street and give them a quick 5 minutes of instruction and turn them loose on the days production run of knives. if this person has no real clue to what a sharp knife is, they might think that if it has 2 angles and looks sharp, then it is sharp to them even if it is not.
 
i think a lot of knife companys need to improve on their edges or better yet, teach the people who do the sharpening how to do a better job by having them use what they sharpen. in the long run it might help the companys reputation if they are known for sending out dull knives.

i wonder how many hire someone off the street and give them a quick 5 minutes of instruction and turn them loose on the days production run of knives. if this person has no real clue to what a sharp knife is, they might think that if it has 2 angles and looks sharp, then it is sharp to them even if it is not.

My guess would be that very few manufacturers would do this. Easier, and less expensive to have an automated process (robots do not get hurt and sue). Cheap knives use cheap steel...and grinding off MORE than is necessary will ensure that the bevels intersect and the knife is therefore "sharp" (but not really).

I could be wrong...
 
I've repaired enough home sharpened edges for other folks to know there is some truth to the "leave it alone" advice. The mass marketing and availability of pull-through sharpeners promote crappy edges. Perhaps it's the area I live in, but I have yet to meet more than 5 people who knows anything about proper sharpening.

For the vast majority of folks around here (I mean the suburban area where I live, not the forum), a new factory edge is the sharpest edge they will ever use. Everything after that is mediocre at best. Very few people bother with learning to sharpen properly and while they may own some sharpening tools, they don't practice.

I used pull-through devices for 15 years before getting my first bench stone. And I waited a few more years before learning to sharpen properly, and only because I found this and other internet forums.
 
Perhaps it's the area I live in, but I have yet to meet more than 5 people who knows anything about proper sharpening.

then you're lucky ... and i'm a chef i've quite a few people who works with knives daily.

i exagerate a bit but during my (short yet) career i think i've met about 10 people i'd consider good at sharpening. that's how bad it is.
 
Perhaps it's the area I live in, but I have yet to meet more than 5 people who knows anything about proper sharpening.

I think that your conjecture that the area you are in may be a factor could be accurate to some degree. If you lived on private farm and your neighbors and friends were private farmers, you might know more people that are capable, but that is just a hunch.

To your point...even on these forums, there are SCADS of people looking to produce sharp edges and they seek devices to simplify this endeavor (and many of them probably (honestly) would embrace a device that allows them to sharpen without knowing anything about proper sharpening). Depending on your standards, there are many people out there that are capable of improving an edge (some would certainly call this sharpening) yet they know very little about what many would call "proper sharpening".

As an example, I watched a fisherman (friend of mine) strop a very thin fillet knife on the board he was cleaning fish on. He surmised that the knife worked better after this action because he was "cleaning the goo off" of it. In truth, he was essentially refining the edge to some degree, but I can assure you he knew nothing of "proper sharpening". Over the years, his technique had apparently improved to the point that he was generating an edge that would scrape (rough shave) arm hair!

I am not sure what my point is here...perhaps to illustrate that there are a LOT of different folks, understandings, uses, expectations, prejudices, etc. in this world...understanding that these differences exist makes it a lot easier to understand why we do not always agree even though we may all be right to some degree.

edit to add:
It might prove interesting to run a poll in General Discussion asking how much people would pay for a black box that you can feed knives into that would produce sharp edges (perhaps with various settings for "hair whittling", "working sharp", and "mirror polished"). I predict that there would be a lot of people interested depending on the price point if such a machine existed.
 
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Forums are truly intended to fuel discussion and foster the sharing of opinions - this thread certainly is testimony to that......
I am 50 years old, grew up in the country, worked on a farm, spent 14 years+ in the Army, been buying-selling-collecting knives since I bought my first knife at 9 years old and got a beatin' cuz I wasn't allowed to have it.
I haven't met (personally) TWO(2) people in my whole entire life that could sharpen a knife.
I never ran into anyone that obsessed over every detail of it until now. Glad I did, because it's part of the hobby.
But, to think that there are many people out there that know the first thing about knife sharpening is just presumptuous. Now, are any of those people visiting Blade Forums? No.
So I'd say it's a safe bet that those chiming in here are not the "normal" knife owner.
To that end, there are probably a disproportionate number on the Forum that know, think they know, know enough to be dangerous - about sharpening knives.
Did Richard say, " Don't touch the Knife Ever". or " Leave it alone and Never Sharpen it" or "Touch your knife and you'll grow hair on your palms" ?
I read, and understood him to say " Don't touch the factory edge until you give it a try"

That sounded like some pretty fair, level headed advice from someone I do not know but assume must be a little gray up top and been around knives once or twice... but hey, I could be wrong.
Considering I've read a few other threads where guys wrote, "I tried to sharpen my brand new XM'18 right after opening the box and uh I think I screwed it up" Uh Help!
Maybe he shoulda left it alone and tried the factory edge....
 
"Touch your knife and you'll grow hair on your palms" ?

I think I'll be using that on my kid. Touch daddy's knives and... :D

Considering I've read a few other threads where guys wrote, "I tried to sharpen my brand new XM'18 right after opening the box and uh I think I screwed it up" Uh Help!
Maybe he shoulda left it alone and tried the factory edge....

Exactly. So in other words, there IS a good use for the gas station crap knives. Practice sharpening fodder.
 
I think I'll be using that on my kid. Touch daddy's knives and... :D



Exactly. So in other words, there IS a good use for the gas station crap knives. Practice sharpening fodder.

You got that right. I genuinely feel sorry for anyone who buys a nice knife and fools himself into thinking, Ahh I'll just tune this knife up a little can't be that tough.
The danger isn't in "leaving it alone" the danger in ANYTHING is thinking you know what you are doing when, in fact, you do not.
In my business I see it everyday and many times with dire outcomes.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditch_Digger
"This is not subject to debate because it is simple physics. It’s all about “point loads” vs. spreading the force out. It has been PROVEN that a finely honed edge keeps its edge longer."

Quote: originally posted by I forget who:
"I don't believe anything of the sort has been "proven" or there'd be no debate. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, if the edge is a good fit for the application, it'll last longer. (period). You should spend some time talking to engineers who design cutting implements for industrial applications."

Incorrect. Industrial cutting tools used to cut things from carbon fiber to plastics to steel all have pretty finely ground and in many cases honed edges. Coarsely ground or non-honed edges definitely have an adverse effect on tool edge life. The purpose of the hone is to remove any sort of wire edge and to protect the actual extreme edge where the cutting takes place from the brunt of the force applied while cutting. Some tools are honed to a dead sharp point, (such as for cutting aluminum, rubber, or plastics) while others are blunted slightly or even radiused lightly in some cases. The point is, the edge that will last the longest varies based on the material being cut, the material and hardness of the cutting tool, and the speed of the cut (which directly determines the heat produced). The original poster did make a sensible post...for noobs and people lacking sharpening know-how. The rest of us don't need to worry about it since it doesn't affect us.

As for the chop down a tree and still shave crowd, I am certain it is possible, but it would require a good knife made from good steel, and a proper sharpening job with a proper angle. Remember that when a knife edge cuts into wood, it isn't like cutting into cheese or butter. The knife begins the cut with the blade edge, but then the blade widens as it gets deeper into the cut and at some point it basically acts as a wedge, pulling the wood away from the extreme edge of the blade. So the more obtuse the angle, the more protected the edge in two ways. It is stronger because it has thicker steel immediately behind the edge, and it also tends to wedge the material it is cutting open further from the edge. I can use a high speed steel drill to cut steel and if properly prepared, the edge will remain nearly as sharp as when it was sharpened for many many holes. I believe that the tree/2x4 thing could easily be done with a fairly obtuse edge. Even a 90 degree included edge can be made very very sharp.

When an edge is sharpened with a coarse grit, it is effectively putting micro-serrations on the cutting edge. If this is then stropped, what results is a very sharp serrated edge. When the high points wear, the low points will remain pretty sharp, this type of edge can probably cut rope with a sawing motion considerably longer than a fine honed edge. However, the fine honed edge will push cut much much better, and for quite a while longer. Again, the application should determine the type of edge preparation.
 
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ekretz, check out post 94 of mine on the previous page. i posted a cross section diagram of the knife i chopped down the tree with. it has less than a 19 degree angle on it now and is chisel ground.

at my website i have a picture of the tree i cut down. the steel is 1075 and the rc is 64rc.

my last 2 years of high school i took machine trades. our teacher taught us how to grind our own turning tools. some of the best finishes i have had were with a tool that i had ran a fine stone over the edge to put a radius on it.
 
How exactly did you measure the profile of the blade? The high hardness I am sure definitely helped you out, but I am quite surprised you didn't encounter any chipping with that hardness. Cutting a live tree (soft, moist wood) also probably would help a lot.
 
i made a cross section mold of the blade and sent a picture to a member that had an autocad program to trace it out.

i have beat and chopped on seasoned red oak, maple, ash, elm, and dead thorn tree limbs that were hard as a rock with the knife and not had a problem with chipping.

i made a chopper for brian jones who is a w&ss mod that has a convex edge. he called me one night to tell me he had used it to remodel a kitchen. he used it to tear out 2x4's and chop out drywall. he said after all that it still shaved hair and it even cut him on his finger. here is a link to the post.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6346837&postcount=33
 
I took a brand new Kabar USMC to my local knife sharpener who also has years and years of experience sharpening. I told him I wanted a convex reprofile done. He all but refused. He strongly suggested that I leave it alone. I was a little dumbfounded at first but I conceded. Found it interesting to see this thread after just having this happen to me recently, for what it's worth.
 
if you have used the knife or have used one before and want a convex edge then have one put on. i more or less started this thread for members who might not know much about knives and who might have read to do otherwise without even trying the factory edge first.

i'm a big fan of convex edges or half convex edges which is what i put on most of the chisel grind knives i make. your kabar would probably benefit from a nice convex edge.

is your local knife sharpening guy set up to do convex edges? he would need a belt sander to do a good job unless he did it by hand.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditch_Digger
"This is not subject to debate because it is simple physics. It’s all about “point loads” vs. spreading the force out. It has been PROVEN that a finely honed edge keeps its edge longer."

Quote: originally posted by I forget who:
"I don't believe anything of the sort has been "proven" or there'd be no debate. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, if the edge is a good fit for the application, it'll last longer. (period). You should spend some time talking to engineers who design cutting implements for industrial applications."

Incorrect. Industrial cutting tools used to cut things from carbon fiber to plastics to steel all have pretty finely ground and in many cases honed edges. Coarsely ground or non-honed edges definitely have an adverse effect on tool edge life. The purpose of the hone is to remove any sort of wire edge and to protect the actual extreme edge where the cutting takes place from the brunt of the force applied while cutting. Some tools are honed to a dead sharp point, (such as for cutting aluminum, rubber, or plastics) while others are blunted slightly or even radiused lightly in some cases. The point is, the edge that will last the longest varies based on the material being cut, the material and hardness of the cutting tool, and the speed of the cut (which directly determines the heat produced). The original poster did make a sensible post...for noobs and people lacking sharpening know-how. The rest of us don't need to worry about it since it doesn't affect us.

And why is this but to spread the load out? In many applications, failure to radius this edge results in excessive burring, short tool life, undesired amounts of cutting residue, and deformations at the cut. Anyone that says a finely polished edge has more support behind the cutting edge is ignoring the fact that the cutting surface is also that much smaller (refer to Dr Verhooven's work). Any difference in load bearing between a thinner uninterrupted edge and an "irregular", relatively broad one (all other factors being equal), is going to be balanced out by these factors (at least as far as hand tools are concerned). Has anyone ever seen and documented the excessive wear attributed to a coarse edge? I have seen nothing of the sort in my own experience, and can find nothing but opinion (no different or more valid than my own) when looking into the subject, let alone some demonstrated fact of metallurgy or physics.

Again, the application should determine the type of edge preparation.

Isn't that what I said? It comes down to what type of cutting strategy works best for the material in question. There may be a big difference between a hatchet and a crosscut saw, but both will cut through a 2x4 - operative word here is "cut". Which one will cut more before needing maintenance? Don't saw with a hatchet and don't chop with a saw. The difference when talking about knives is that a coarse edge draw cuts very well, and can be made to push cut reasonably well, a (highly refined) fine edge will only draw cut slightly better than it push cuts alone.
 
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if you have used the knife or have used one before and want a convex edge then have one put on. i more or less started this thread for members who might not know much about knives and who might have read to do otherwise without even trying the factory edge first.

i'm a big fan of convex edges or half convex edges which is what i put on most of the chisel grind knives i make. your kabar would probably benefit from a nice convex edge.

is your local knife sharpening guy set up to do convex edges? he would need a belt sander to do a good job unless he did it by hand.

Great question. I'll check back with him. Could be that he didn't want to do it bc he isn't set up for it. Thanks.
 
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