down2man (George Huang)

[DylanMW]

Back in the start of early May I listed a Umnumzaan for sale here on the forums. I didn't really want to let the knife go, but I needed to buy books for my summer college semester. Shorty after I had posted my knife for sale I was contacted by a forum member George Huang from Australia. I'm not sure what his username here is because it was from a email that is not linked with his forum account.

He offered me an extra $20 for the knife to help cover shipping, I informed him I had NEVER shipped outside of ConUS and was not sure if I wanted too. He assured me everything would be perfectly fine and after the package left my hands he would take full responsiblity for it. He also told me he had ordered 3 or 4 others before so he knew they would make it too him just fine and USPS was the best way. I reluctently agreed and dropped the knife off at the post office. I cost almost $50 to ship with tracking and insurance which really sucked since he guessed it would only be about $25.

After I got home I emailed George the tracking number and let him know the package was on the way. He replied saying perfect he would let me know when it arrived.

Fast forward too May 17th. The knife got stuck in customs and tracking information said "customs clearance". Fast forward May 25th, George emails me and tells me the knife has still not made it and that I should go to the post office and claim my insurance so I am able to pay him back. So I tell him no problem and I will stop and the post office after work. I get to the post office and that lady pulls it up and looks at the info and helps me submit my claim for the knife. About a week later I come to find out my claim was denied because USPS did nothing wrong. The dropped the knife off at customs so they no longer take any responsiblity for the package. So I email George back and explain the situation and tell him we will just have to wait for customs to clear the package.

Fast forward June 10th, George emails me and asks for his money back for the knife because he never recieved it. I emailed him back and explained that the lady at USPS said it can take months for items to clear customs some times and that I should contact him. This was the last email contact I ever had with George.

Fast forward June 14th, I get a notice from paypal my account has been frozen, $395 has been deducted and George has appeal the claim saying I have not spoken with him in over 2 weeks and I never shipped the item he ordered.

I file out my information with emails showing George telling him he takes full responsiblity for the package after it has been mailed, him saying it will have no problems in customs, the customs clearance sheat, tracking slip and explain the whole sitation. A whole month goes by that I have my account frozen before paypal comes to a conclusion and they tell me they have voted in the favor of George because I didn't provide enough information.

So at that point I appeal, and call paypal. I explain the whole situation to a guy on the phone, give him photos of all the emails, tracking and customs information and he passes this on to the resolution center. The next day I am told my appeal was denied and they still favor George in this.

Fast forward a few days, I call in again and explain the whole situation too a very nice lady on the phone. She appolizes, and tells me I got dooped by George. She said the only thing they will be able to do is wave the trasaction fee and she is sorry I had to learn a lesson like this with such an expesive item.

Fast forward a few more days to today. I get a call from paypal telling me I need to pay them for my negative balace and they want my credit card to put it on. I explain to the lady I do not have a credit card and I am a college student who doesn't have $400 to spend on my paypal at the moment. I tell her I will put $100 a month until it is paid off and she tells me they are not a loan service and I need to find a way to get all the money in one payment or they will continue to call and email me until I do.

The whole situation is terrible. I understand the package did not get there, but I did everything that was asked off me and everything I am able to do short of flying over to Australia and knocking on customs door.

I guess I do not understand how that was not enough proof for paypal to decide in my favor.

The whole situation has turned me off from internation shipping and just people in general.

 

[ooitzoo]

Yea man. Sorry to hear about this. It doesn't sound like George ripped you off per-say but its still a crappy situation.

Going forward insist on PP gift / personal for all international sales as that mitigates the risk of this kind of thing happening.

 

[FLymon]

It sucks you had to learn the hard way.

It's not really difficult to understand.
If you get paid through PayPal you MUST show proof of delivery. If the value exceeds $250 you MUST also get signature confirmation along with the proof of delivery or you will "lose" every time.
Always confirm that the shipping method you use guarantees delivery to the buyers address. Not just getting it into the country's customs department, but all the way to the door. If you can't get proof of delivery, do not ship it.

It doesn't matter what the buyer tells you (even in writing) as far as PayPal is concerned. Their rules are simple and easy to understand. I have been using them professionally for about 7 years now and have processed between 8,000-10,000 payments through them (average sale value of maybe $600) and I have not gotten beat yet (knocking on wood). I had two claims go my way this month alone, but I know and follow their rules to a "T".

Now your buyer is a real pile of dog squeeze for saying he would accept the risk and then burning you, but he couldn't have done it without you.

Study up for the next time, and be sure you protect you. No one else will.

 

[DylanMW]

Expensive lesson learned, that's for sure.

I wish I could at least get my knife back but customs doesn't seem to check their emails I guess.

 

[Texaspridejb]

Dylan's a straight up dude too. I feel bad for the overseas guys but this is one of my biggest fears and the reason why I ship conus only I couldn't afford a 400 dollar hit like that. I hope you get it back brother.

 

[RevDevil]

It sucks you had to learn the hard way.

It's not really difficult to understand.
If you get paid through PayPal you MUST show proof of delivery. If the value exceeds $250 you MUST also get signature confirmation along with the proof of delivery or you will "lose" every time.
Always confirm that the shipping method you use guarantees delivery to the buyers address. Not just getting it into the country's customs department, but all the way to the door. If you can't get proof of delivery, do not ship it.

It doesn't matter what the buyer tells you (even in writing) as far as PayPal is concerned. Their rules are simple and easy to understand. I have been using them professionally for about 7 years now and have processed between 8,000-10,000 payments through them (average sale value of maybe $600) and I have not gotten beat yet (knocking on wood). I had two claims go my way this month alone, but I know and follow their rules to a "T".

Now your buyer is a real pile of dog squeeze for saying he would accept the risk and then burning you, but he couldn't have done it without you.

Study up for the next time, and be sure you protect you. No one else will.

Good advice.

On a different note, it's been said a couple times that shipping any folding knives to Australia is a gamble.
http://www.warwickdailynews.com.au/story/2011/12/22/stabbed-by-new-knife-laws/
Straight from one of their newspapers.

 

[braillediver]

Pocket knives that can only be opened with two hands will still be acceptable if they pass the police public place test

Wow! The Umnumzaan fails that. So was it confiscated and disposed of by customs?

It sucks since he must have known this before buying the knife?

 

[RevDevil]

There are a lot of people that have no clue as to the knife laws in their areas. If you look on ebay, there are very few people that will ship to Australia, it always means they will be out the knife, and the money Paypal takes away from their account.

 

[DylanMW]

Hopefully I will get lucky and customs will mail it back. (Highly unlikely I know.)

 

[Andy the Aussie]

Yes the CR is on "The List" in reality a mythical document that Customs here use. If the knife can be opened in the manner shown in this video

[video=youtube;NthM0-j76AU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NthM0-j76AU&list=FL522znKCqFJsAUDGVimsDBA&index=32&feature=plpp_video[/video]

...then it will be deemed a "Flick Knife" and not allowed in. If it is his first attempt at having what is deemed naughty mailed in Aust Customs will give him the option of having it returned to sender. If he has tried before then it will be confiscated and he may be prosecuted for it. Thumb studs etc have no bearing on how a knife is classified just the test in the video. Fixed blade knives are NO problem at all provided that they are not double edged (though collectors can get a permit for such blades), "push blades" or trench knives (knuckle duster guards etc). I have imported over 100 fixed blades in the past few years with NO issue. I also had an Emerson A100 come in and be tested and passed. The onus really is on the buyer here to know the laws. Flippers and assisted openers are SPECIFICALLY a no no...though not at all illegal to own in most states.

I would be making a case to paypal that YOU have in fact done everything right and that the knife is with Aust Customs and the importation of the blade is the responsibility of the importer and not the seller/exporter.

Andy

 

[DylanMW]

RIP.

 

[ooitzoo]

Hey, quick question: what is george's BF username? You can email / msg it to me if you don't want to post it here. I think I may have done business with him a couple of times and I can try to talk some sense into him or find out his side of things.

 

[Thomas Linton]

What about buyer declaring customs to be his agent for receipt of delivery of goods?
(What, you can't read what I intended to type? ^___^ )

 

[DylanMW]

Hey, quick question: what is george's BF username? You can email / msg it to me if you don't want to post it here. I think I may have done business with him a couple of times and I can try to talk some sense into him or find out his side of things.

PM sent.

What about buyer declaring customers to be his agent for receipt of delivery of goods?

Huh? Little confused.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

... I'm not sure what his username here is because it was from a email that is not linked with his forum account.

... was not sure if I wanted too... I reluctently agreed...

my claim was denied because USPS did nothing wrong.

George emails me and asks for his money back for the knife because he never recieved it.... Fast forward June 14th... my account has been frozen, $395 has been deducted...

paypal comes to a conclusion and they tell me they have voted in the favor of George because I didn't provide enough information.

So at that point I appeal, and call paypal.

I get a call from paypal telling me I need to pay them for my negative balace...

The whole situation is terrible. I understand the package did not get there, but I did everything that was asked off me and everything I am able to do short of flying over to Australia and knocking on customs door.

I guess I do not understand how that was not enough proof for paypal to decide in my favor.

The whole situation has turned me off from internation shipping and just people in general.

Here are the problems:

1. You had serious doubts about this transaction to begin with and yet you let someone sweet-talk you into going through with it. There's your first problem.

2. Your second problem is you kept expecting everyone else to just believe you and solve the problem for you even thought they don't owe you that. USPS only gives you your insurance claim if they are at fault. The buyer only lets you keep his money if he actually receives the knife. PayPal is not going to find in your favor if you have ZERO records or proof of your claim.

3. By shipping to a country where there is a history of bad customs occurrences, you took a huge risk. You paid for it. Now you are complaining about it and blaming everyone under the sun but yourself for getting into this mess. All joking and funny memes aside, it seems to me that you made your own misery here, and neither PayPal nor USPS, nor this George guy is to blame.

4. You even hinted that you are thinking of contacting Australian customs. If I had to guess, I'd say you already tried or looked into it. For the love of all that is holy, please, please don't... You'd have more luck if you just smashed your balls with a hammer for a while. When things disappear in customs, they go to the same place as all the left socks: a mountain on a planet orbiting HR 8799 in the Pegasus constellation.

5. Now you say that the wholes situation has turned you off from international shipping and people in general. Well, if you keep good records, only make deals that don't give you shady vibes, and are fully prepared to understand and accept the risk of the deal, you won't have problems. Your attitude and uninformed assumptions are the problem. Not USPS, PayPal, or George Huang.


Here is the lesson to be learned:

The lesson to be learned here is not that international shipping and people in general are bad. The lesson to be learned here is that you need to think your deals through more thoroughly, keep good records, trust your gut when it tells you not to make a deal, and accept the risk you are taking.

 

[The Logical One]

It sounds like he was trying hard to cover his butt with complete disregard as to the fact that he's screwing you over. I've shipped internationally a couple of times with absolutely no issues. I use to be hesitant to ship internationally but because of the agreement that "as soon as I ship the knife out I am in no way responsible to what happens to it", I figured it was safe.

I guess I was naive to think that the "agreement" between the buyer actually meant something. If paypal sides with the buyer regardless I am definitely not going to ship internationally anymore.

Sorry to hear about your incident and I hope you get your knife back. It's always the few bad apples that ruins it for everybody.

 

[Steven65]

As an "International" it always distresses me when I see a thread like this. The vast majority of us are good upstanding BF citizens who keep their word.

If George specifically stated in writing that he accepted any and all responsibility should the item get lost or seized by customs, then he is a liar and a thief.

However if not, then I am afraid that the responsibility lies with you. A simple search of "Shipping to Australia" or a post on the Australian forum would have told you that you may face a problem. A tough, painful learning curve.

In the meantime I suggest that you settle Paypal asap before it negatively impacts your credit rating.

I hope that the situation resolves itself to everyone's benefit.

 

[FLymon]

What about buyer declaring customers to be his agent for receipt of delivery of goods?

That will not work, unless PayPal will confirm the address as your own, and customs agrees to sign for the package and hold it for you to pick up, or mail it to you.

It sounds like he was trying hard to cover his butt with complete disregard as to the fact that he's screwing you over. I've shipped internationally a couple of times with absolutely no issues. I use to be hesitant to ship internationally but because of the agreement that "as soon as I ship the knife out I am in no way responsible to what happens to it", I figured it was safe.

I guess I was naive to think that the "agreement" between the buyer actually meant something. If paypal sides with the buyer regardless I am definitely not going to ship internationally anymore.

Sorry to hear about your incident and I hope you get your knife back. It's always the few bad apples that ruins it for everybody.

Look at it like this.
1. The buyer contracts with PayPal to pay them for the sellers item in exchange for a guarantee that the buyer will receive the item, or get their money back.
2. PayPal then contracts with the seller to deliver the item to a specific address, and only that specific address, for the sale price less a small fee.
3. If the buyer claims the item was never received, or it was an unauthorized charge, and the seller can prove it was delivered and signed for (to the PayPal provided confirmed address) PayPal will eat any loses. If the seller cannot prove delivery, the seller will eat the loss.

Simple as that. The seller can take a credit card payment without the usual associated risks of a charge back, and the buyer can pay up front and be assured of receiving his purchase from an unknown seller, probably out of state and maybe in another country all together. It's really a great deal for both parties.

The agreement between you and the buyer does mean something, and you may be able to take him to court with your emails as evidence of your agreement. You would probably even win since (in this case anyway) you could prove he agreed to the risk, and that you shipped the knife (or a box anyway), but you would have to go to AU to do it since that is where the fraud occurred. Unless you could be absolutely certain to be awarded all associated costs, and actually recover the award, it's not worth it.

 

[Thomas Linton]

1. The buyer contracts with PayPal to pay them for the sellers item in exchange for a guarantee that the buyer will receive the item, or get their money back.

Then, we are told, the buyer contracts with the seller to pay FOB shipping point (allowed by our Uniform Commercial Code). This means the buyer assumed the risks of non-delivery beyond the shipping point.

Those are contradictory positions.

 

[uyotg]

Considering that he said he would accept full responsibility and then didn't, I think it would be worthwhile to share some identifying information with the community. There's a chance he might just be scamming you. As Mag pointed out, some things seem pretty shady here. Even if he's not a scammer, he still did not keep his word.

I hope it all works out in the end, however.