Dumped in the Woods--What Knife--What Gun?

I like this thread but I think the gun choices answers would be very different if there were size/weight limitations set instead of round limitations.
So if one could have say the number of 22 L.R. rounds that were the same weight as only 10 rounds of 30.06.
that would be one or maybe two 50 round boxes of ammo. That could bag a lot of small game!
 
I like this thread but I think the gun choices answers would be very different if there were size/weight limitations set instead of round limitations.
So if one could have say the number of 22 L.R. rounds that were the same weight as only 10 rounds of 30.06.
that would be one or maybe two 50 round boxes of ammo. That could bag a lot of small game!

You're right......I'm sure a lot more people would go for the .22 if they could have 100 rounds of ammo.

But having even 25 rounds of ammo would make it a lot easier to feed yourself......maybe too easy. Ten rounds makes it tough.

:)
 
Review:

Time is now (late August).

One Buck knife.......no axe unless you want to trade the knife for an axe. There's a river and lake within a few miles and you have a map and compass--terrain may be quite rough--slow going.

I grew up in the mountains I would be fine with just the axe. There isn't a knife made that I would trade my axe for to use in the situation described.

The gun isn't as important a choice. With only ten rounds you are going to have a hard time feeding yourself game for three weeks if you consider it important to have fresh meat. Jerky takes about 40-60 days to make without heat. You aren't likely to have the stuff required to make edible jerky that isn't air dried. Really your choices for protein will be small game and fish. Fish is going to be the better choice most of the time. Snowshoes make a great meal but they are so lean you don't want to eat them often if you need calories to move over rough terrain or to stay warm.

The two most important things to have in this situation are common sense and knowledge of the area you are in. The single most valuable tangible item you could possess in this situation is an axe.
 
Ok, I find myself in agreement with what you say......I've been saying that this is more likely a scenario that will be more small game and fish than big game.

But.....the major question in decision between knife and axe is--which will you use most and need most?

I had been thinking that deadfalls would supply all the wood we'd need and that those who killed big game might be able to preserve it by heating over a fire and smoking.

Please explain the features of the axe of which you speak and how it will be of more value than a knife.

The choice of an axe instead of a knife has been mentioned before in the thread and should be discussed more.

I think anybody interested in these kinds of scenarios would want to hear your thoughts.

:thumbup:
 
... five freeze-dried meals, five cans of beans, ...
You will get $10,000 for every freeze-dried meal and can of beans that you bring back intact...
... what's your strategy to come back as rich as possible?...

I can fast for 20 days, for a hundred gees. Seriously!

Catching fish and edible vegetation would just be gravy. :)

Buck 119 would do fine, and though the odds of being attacked by a bear or lion rank right up there with being stuck by lightening several times in a row, a 12 gauge with 8 slugs would serve as both protection and possibility of shooting something big to eat. 8 squirrels or rabbits wouldn't go far. If I knew ducks, geese, and turkeys were rife, though, probably substitute 6 rounds of #4 shot for slugs.

- OS
 
Ok, I find myself in agreement with what you say......I've been saying that this is more likely a scenario that will be more small game and fish than big game.

But.....the major question in decision between knife and axe is--which will you use most and need most?

I had been thinking that deadfalls would supply all the wood we'd need and that those who killed big game might be able to preserve it by heating over a fire and smoking.

Please explain the features of the axe of which you speak and how it will be of more value than a knife.

The choice of an axe instead of a knife has been mentioned before in the thread and should be discussed more.

I think anybody interested in these kinds of scenarios would want to hear your thoughts.

:thumbup:

It will depend where you are as to whether or not there will be an abundance of small game. The only small game that will present in the high country will be animals that hibernate or burrow. Ground squirrels, etc. This time of year it would be very likely you could find deer, elk, maybe sheep or a goat.

Heating meat over a fire is cooking it. It will add hours to it's useable time frame but not much. If you want to save meat you have to dry it, cure it, or can it. None of which are very practical for a guy on the move. Of course you could shoot a whatever and just take what you can use today. Which is not a bad option if you are hungry. You might be able to make this work for you if confine your big meals to every other day and supplement your diet the other days with whatever you can scrounge. You certainly wouldn't starve to death in three weeks.

An axe is capable of much more work and can do it for longer periods of time with you expending way less energy. It is made to process wood which is what you will need. If you carry a quality axe you will probably have a stone and if not there is certainly plenty of granite in the Rockies to maintain it. It can do just about anything a knife can do and a whole more with less risk of breakage. An axe with a flayed poll is a better skinning tool than a skinning knife. I of course would always like to have at least one knife but if I had to chose the axe is the first thing I am going to grab. While not its best use it will make a better hammer than a knife as well.

A small or Forest or Hunters axe is just as easy to carry as a big knife and makes at least as good a weapon if needed. Even an expensive one like a Gransfors Bruks is not that expensive compared to a lot of blades. Higher than some and cheaper than a lot of others. Will absolutely last longer when used hard. It also keeps my bedroll and related items straight when rolled around it's handle. I can slide it out for instant access if need be.

Knowledge of the area will of course help you as much as anything. Knowing what kind of game is likely to be present. Same thing with fish. Fish aren't plentiful everywhere in the mountains. If you are remotely close to any large urban areas you might be limited to rivers and creeks that are stocked or are down river from a hatchery. There is no better source for trout than a fish trap. While highly frowned upon if I were trying to survive and I was in area that is stocked I am going to look for where they might be trapping them.

Knowing what plant life is edible is going to make your life a lot easier as well. Where there is water there is likely to be some kind of plant life. Some of it is really tasty and good for you, some of it will make sick and possibly unable to travel. There is not a whole lot up there that will kill you. Avoid any of the nightshades and you probably won't die from a plant. Some areas have pretty good mushrooms. You need to know which ones to eat. They have almost no nutritional value but they can be pretty tasty.

With a little knowledge it is easier to survive than it is to die. With zero knowledge I think it is more likely you will die than survive. Three weeks isn't very long if you can stay reasonably dry, warm, and can scrounge up a little food. Three weeks is a long time if you can't do even one of the three.

Someone mentioned having a dog with you. That is a great idea. A good dog is a better companion in the woods than another human with the same capabilities as you. I would rather have my Airedales with me than a gun. They will collect more small game in a shorter period of time than a man can. It's virtually impossible for you to get a beaver out of it's dam. A good dog will fetch him and beaver is about as good to eat as anything else you will encounter other than a young goat (which you won't likely get close enough to) or Elk venison. A small slice of its tail will give you all the fat you need for the day and tastes like candy. A big slice will overdose you on vitamin A and possibly kill you. A good dog or two will also protect you. It is highly unlikely a bear will bother you in the lower 48. A dog or two will make sure of that. When the rut starts it's possible to walk up on Bull Elk or a Buck Deer that won't take kindly to your presence. Most of them will run from a dog and the ones that won't will more likely take after the dog than you. A dog can pretty easily escape them, something you are unlikely to be able to do.
 
I haven't read all the responses to this thread, but I have thought about it a little over the last couple of days. It would be a situation I've not been in before, so I am not sure my choices would be the best, but..............I have backpacked about 20,000 miles through mountains in the east and the west.

Backpacking is totally different because I resupply at one town, hitch back to a trailhead and walk anywhere from 30 miles to over 100 miles to the next trailhead where I hitch into the nearest town and resupply for the next leg of the trail.

Having backpacked so much and knowing what a huge difference weight makes, my choices would be a Paperstone 110 and an AR-7 22 caliber rifle.

The 110 because of it's relative liteweight and toughness along with it's piercing ability and the AR-7 because of it's ultra liteweight and take apart packing.

The rifle would be used for small game, not for protection. I've never felt the need for protection in the wild. The 110 does a fine job with the rest.
 
Someone mentioned having a dog with you. That is a great idea. A good dog is a better companion in the woods than another human with the same capabilities as you. I would rather have my Airedales with me than a gun. They will collect more small game in a shorter period of time than a man can. It's virtually impossible for you to get a beaver out of it's dam. A good dog will fetch him and beaver is about as good to eat as anything else you will encounter other than a young goat (which you won't likely get close enough to) or Elk venison. A small slice of its tail will give you all the fat you need for the day and tastes like candy. A big slice will overdose you on vitamin A and possibly kill you. A good dog or two will also protect you. It is highly unlikely a bear will bother you in the lower 48. A dog or two will make sure of that. When the rut starts it's possible to walk up on Bull Elk or a Buck Deer that won't take kindly to your presence. Most of them will run from a dog and the ones that won't will more likely take after the dog than you. A dog can pretty easily escape them, something you are unlikely to be able to do.

Ah yes, the Airedale.....best dog ever.

Scan2_00022.jpg


This was a great one.....and I'd put her up against any bear in the woods (because she was so fast no bear alive would be able to get a paw on her).

Your points on the axe are well taken.....the only caveat is that the axe must be small enough to use for small game and fish and tough enough to retain an edge for such work.

Are you talking about this axe?

http://www.amazon.com/Gransfors-Bruks-Hunters-Axe/dp/B004050KLU
 
I haven't read all the responses to this thread, but I have thought about it a little over the last couple of days. It would be a situation I've not been in before, so I am not sure my choices would be the best, but..............I have backpacked about 20,000 miles through mountains in the east and the west.

Backpacking is totally different because I resupply at one town, hitch back to a trailhead and walk anywhere from 30 miles to over 100 miles to the next trailhead where I hitch into the nearest town and resupply for the next leg of the trail.

Having backpacked so much and knowing what a huge difference weight makes, my choices would be a Paperstone 110 and an AR-7 22 caliber rifle.

The 110 because of it's relative liteweight and toughness along with it's piercing ability and the AR-7 because of it's ultra liteweight and take apart packing.

The rifle would be used for small game, not for protection. I've never felt the need for protection in the wild. The 110 does a fine job with the rest.

Well, keep in mind that in this particular scenario we are looking at a few miles (when I say a few, I mean three to five approximately) of travel over possibly very rough terrain (game trails and brush-busting and hills) to get to the river and lake on the map provided. That could be one, two maybe even three days of travel for some (I purposely left it a little vague).

After that most wouldn't move more than once (if they happened to explore a bit and find a better campsite, for example).

But, carrying less weight is always best and I think you made excellent choices.

And, as TUF mentioned......maybe those who had the best knowledge of edible plants and knew how to make a fish trap would have a huge advantage.
 
Hmm.
I'm going to steal from everyone!
In the spirit of fairness, I am only going to mention things I own.
The only Buck I own is a Vanguard, so she goes with me.

I guess I'd take my Winchester trapper .44, but hope I wouldn't use it.

If the point is to make it 20 days, fasting is a reasonable option.
Since there is no need to be "rescued", only to last the 20 days, I'd find my base camp and for lack of a better word, exploit the area for what I could.
I wouldn't settle in an area with no water, so there is all that water brings.

I'd attempt to trap and fish what I could and eat it at will!
I'd use my down time to attempt to make a bow and arrow, or a slingshot.

If I had to use the rifle and cook and eat a same day meal, so be it.
depending on where we are talking, late august is cool enough to sit on a well cooked piece of game for a day or 3......it isn't like I haven't raided a pizza box that has set out for 72 hours a time or two....
Though that scenario is less likely without beer involved.
 
Well.......amazing diversity of knife preferences!!

I tried to keep track for all who might be interested. If I left you off, let me know and I'll add you. If I made some other mistake, let me know and I'll fix it. Some guys got mentioned twice because they were gonna trade something for something and I just put both to show their top preferences.

Hoodlum came out on top. I don't know if that makes it the best knife for this scenario or only the most talked-about wilderness knife of recent days.

I think the 110 in various variations was second.

The good old 119 was close behind.

ONE thing I found odd was that the 105 (arguably the best all-around knife ever made) didn't get a single vote. I guess it's also the most-forgotten knife ever made.

For that matter.....the 118 didn't get a single mention either.......that's almost as odd.

Roll call of knives:

Bucklite—Silent Lynx
Hoodlum—Ohen Cepel, Hughewil, 2TONYB, Whetrock, Zombie Zeke, Slider817, tholiver, Caine, Scouter27,
Vanguard—Darthstrevel, Coyote Physics, Meanoldbobber,
103—Blademaster01
119—Badhammer, MBJ, Grim 62, Liberando, Sitflyer, Ohshoot,
Intrepid—Jarheadz, HKman47,
106—Buck110
124—Buck110, bigcountry1315, Sudonym, Shavingsharp,
Ergo Hunter—GGA357
Kaala—Longbow
185—Sithus
110—johnny twoshoes, Bertl,
110 154CM—ac1d0v3r1d3
110 Paperstone: Stumps
110 Two Dot –Razorblades
AG 110—JB45-70, Packrat,
112—300Bucks
301—Grateful
Smatchet—sigsaur,
317—runninmike,
Buck/Tops Nighthawk—battboy
121--BG
Buck Selector—110 Dave
112—Modoc ED
102—Modoc ED (Chose second knife instead of firearm), Bertl, TUF,

Bucklite Max: Northingeasting (orange handle)
Gransfors Axe: TUF

105 (Finally) ArfinGreebly,

Interesting responses.......and thanks for responding.

(We can always add latecomers to the list.)

:thumbup:
 
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You will be provided with a well-stocked basic survival kit (yes, you get matches and hook, line and sinker) 50 feet of light rope, a small tarp and sleeping bag and a food pack with five freeze-dried meals, five cans of beans, and some flour, coffee, sugar, salt, cooking oil and a small cooking pot.

The gun would be an 870 Marine Magnum. Quantity 10 - 3", #4, 1-7/8oz copper plated 12 gauge rounds. Pretty much a weather proof weapon. In 20 days a blued gun can get pretty nasty in wet conditions. 1-7/8oz of copper #4's at close range are as good as a slug and will still take small game and or large game.

some flour, coffee, sugar, salt, cooking oil and a small cooking pot. You could survive quite awhile with this and any game taken.. You would very much need the pot to boil water. Boil your water and stay alive!! Boiled salted meat will stay good for days.

Buck 124. Big enough to chop wood and still clean game. You don't need a big knife UNTIL you need a big knife. And 124's are just cool.
 

Yes I think that is absolutely the finest axe you can buy to take to the woods. If you don't care about skinning they make the same axe without the flayed poll for less money. Speaking of money Gransfors axes are going up at an alarming rate. Wetterlings makes fine axes also, I think they have gotten better since Gransfors bought them. They don't always come square though. So you will either need to have someone tune it up or a do a little research and take the time to do it yourself.

These are not big felling axes and won't do the work of one. But they are small enough to strap to your pack, slide in your bedroll, or even hang on your belt if you like to carry one that way. They are bigger than a hatchet. They are forged of good steel and will take as good an edge as any knife. You can skin a whitetail in less than five minutes with no practice. Quite a bit quicker if you know what you are doing. Which is important to get your meat cooled off as soon as possible.

They come with a decent leather sheath. There is a guy on this forum that makes an incredibly good kydex one (in fact he is the one that gave me the axe to replace an ancient hudson bay one that is older than myself). That's what mine rides in. It goes everywhere I go. It's small enough to ride out of the way in the backseat of the pickup and never be in the way. It's handy and cuts so well i use it frequently.

One thing that should be stressed. If you are in a survival situation and you want to be absolutely successful that means sticking to tried and true ways of doing things. It's not a time to experiment or test unproven gear. You will probably be doing enough of that adapting items for shelter and the like. One place to be very careful is food safety. Getting food poisoning is a stinker at home, it's incredibly dangerous to your very existence in the field. There are stories of people eating off a carcass for several days. For every story of someone doing that there are a hundred stories of entire pioneer families dying doing exactly that.

This isn't your kitchen, it's very difficult to be clean. But you need to work on it and plan for it. Boiled salted meat was mentioned and it is a great option as well as a tasty one to me. Problem with that in the field is that salted (cured) meat isn't fresh meat that has had some salt sprinkled on it. It in it's original form dry aged meat cut into small pieces buried in a barrel of salt. You need to keep it above freezing and below something like 39 degrees Fahrenheit. It takes 10 - 30 days to dry age the meat and weeks to salt it properly. I'm sure their is probably a commercial process that is faster but you won't have access to a processing plant.

If you have some knowledge of the area you are in and use your head this survival situation could be the best vacation you ever had. Or without prior planning it could kill you.
 
The gun would be an 870 Marine Magnum. Quantity 10 - 3", #4, 1-7/8oz copper plated 12 gauge rounds. Pretty much a weather proof weapon. In 20 days a blued gun can get pretty nasty in wet conditions. 1-7/8oz of copper #4's at close range are as good as a slug and will still take small game and or large game.

#4 shot or #4 buckshot?

I have never shot a large animal with anything other than buckshot or slugs. How far would a shotgun with #4 shot reliably take an elk? I have an idea as I have used them for ducks, geese, and turkey but not on anything as substantial as a mule deer or an elk.
 
Remington 870 with a 18 inch cyl bore barrel. Two slugs and eight #2 shells all high brass. Buck 124.
 
Thanks. We've had several people who seem quite confident they can kick the crap out of this scenario. Maybe I made it too easy, but I see ending with enough surplus to make a lot of money as fairly iffy. Just a little bad luck or good luck could change things a lot. I guess a lot would depend on how hungry you were willing to get.

:)

I think you might be underestimating the skill level of some forum members. I don't know any of the posters personally, but there are lots of very skilled people on this forum. It is entirely possible to survive for 20 days in summer/autumn in Canada (even in the mountains) without any supplemental food. You just have to know where to look for it.


I'd take a Hoodlum, and as a video-student of the amazing Ron Hood, I would come back with all the food I brought, because I would cache it at the beginning of my journey, deep under ground in a scent-proof container. Save weight, and a good investment in my future. I'd bring my Ruger Frontier in .308 on the journey. 10 rounds of surplus ball would do, because I still don't believe in "hunting" in a survival situation. It's a waste of resources when you can trap things 24 hours a day while napping in your shelter between sips of pine needle tea.


If Ron were still around to take this challenge, he would no doubt return with 20 freeze dried meals and 20 cans of beans, retrieved from various caches he placed ahead of time. I hope the producers allowed for that in the budget. I hope he knows how much he still means to so many of us.
 
I must confess, my woodcraft is a little rusty. (Okay, a lot rusty.)

But let's assume that I had a few weeks to ramp up the skills. There was a time when I could make fire from very little. Shelter from whatever was handy. I use to know my way around a fish. Been some time since I had to turn a bird into a meal, starting with feathers, feet, and head all still attached. And preparing any animal that grows hair is something I've always done after someone else has done the icky parts.

But let's assume I have completed a refreshing from my hiking/camping days.

I will opine that I find this "one knife" thing at some considerable variance from reality. In real life, the only way you get to see me without a minimum of three knives on my person is to put me on a plane or in a courthouse. Or in bed or the shower. Still, let's see what I can do.

For one thing, I have to agree with those who pointed out that weight is a big deal, I'm packing light for this. I considered the EcoLite 110, but for about the same weight I can take the 105, and have a slim yet robust knife that will handle fish and foul duty just fine. I'm thinking I might want to contrive some kind of lanyard fitting for the 105, some way of affixing a thong. Not really interested in losing it in a lake or stream.

I looked at the Buck camp axe, and it just doesn't have the depth. I'll take the Pathfinder for now.

For the gun, after some thought, I do believe I'll go with the Marlin P70SS Papoose (.22 LR take-down rifle, very light) with a good red dot optic. It's really too bad they don't do a similar model in .22 mag; the extra punch would be way more versatile.

Forage on the go. Edible plants as I encounter them. Small game as targets of opportunity. Basically stay on the move until I've reached the lake. I'm not going to be doing any "free climbing" so I'll have to read the terrain more carefully. Overnight off the ground where possible, but not at the expense of adequate warmth. Oh, and the pine needle tea mentioned above: absolutely.

I'm not sure I'd be ready for bug tartar, but maybe singed would be okay. I'm thinking snares will get something with fewer legs and more meat.

If I can score small game at lakeside, even the less edible varieties will provide bait material for fishing. Catch and release rules will simply have to be suspended for the duration.

Anyway . . .

Buck 105 Pathfinder.
Marlin P70SS Papoose.

Happily, I own both of those. You're providing the red dot optic, right?

 
How far would a shotgun with #4 shot reliably take an elk?

When dealing with BIRD shot (not buckshot).......and a full choke bore:

I'm speculating here.....(I've never even READ about an elk being taken with #4 birdshot) but I've at least had a quite a few years of experience with shotguns and I'd have to say 15 yards max and you would want to hit him squarely in the throat.

An alternative shot would be the hamstring area to take out the femoral artery (at the same range).

Shot charges compare to slugs only in a very general and approximate way and only at very, very close range (like five yards or less).

Elk are not likely to offer such a close range shot anyway, so the point is mooted by that to a certain extent.
 
For one thing, I have to agree with those who pointed out that weight is a big deal, I'm packing light for this. I considered the EcoLite 110, but for about the same weight I can take the 105, and have a slim yet robust knife that will handle fish and foul duty just fine. I'm thinking I might want to contrive some kind of lanyard fitting for the 105, some way of affixing a thong. Not really interested in losing it in a lake or stream.

At last!!!! Somebody chose a 105. I was beginning to worry.

:)

Lanyard is good advice in this particular scenario, too.

Sure......you can have the Red Dot (bring your own batteries).

:)
 
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