Ed Fowler

[NDallyn]

I think we all may be reaching the point where discussion turns into argument. I am not a member of the ABS, I do not forge my knives (although I have been expirementing with my forge when not working on orders), I really have no skin in the game other than trying to learn what I can when I can. The ABS guys that I have talked to, online and on the phone, have impressed me. Let's just keep things on track without this turning into some sort of schoolyard scrap.

I just hate to see things degenerate, have a good one,

Nathan

 

[RogerP]

Fitzo,

The job of the American Bladesmith Society is to promote the forged blade above all else. I would be surprised and disappointed if the goal of the organization was to do anything else.

The ABS mission statement:

"The American Bladesmith Society, Inc. pledges to diligently, reasonably and responsibly work exclusively for the purposes of promoting and advancing the art and science of the forged blade and other implements. And also to inform and educate the public in respect to bladesmithing, metal forging and heat treating processes, knife and tool design and fabrication, related arts and other areas in which the Society has expertise."

Seems pretty straightforward to me, yet some seem to struggle with the basic concept.

Roger

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Quoted from page one:

I kind of cringed when the ABS was mentioned in the other thread. They're some strong feelings and these threads can get nasty.

I think that Don actually has a crystal ball.

 

[fitzo]

The ABS mission statement:

" diligently, reasonably and responsibly ."

Important words. My only point, in case people need to re-read my original post and read Kevin's article.

 

[RogerP]

Important words. My only point, in case people need to re-read my original post and read Kevin's article.

Which one - "The Anatomy of Hype" or "Forging Once and For All"

Or maybe you could just post the portion here that you feel suggests that the ABS, as an organization, is less than "dilligent, reasonable, responsible"?

Roger

 

[fitzo]

Roger, I have to apologize because I can't find what I claimed was on Kevin's site. I don't know if the articles have been edited with time, an article removed, or whether I am remembering something he wrote here.
Regardless, I can't retrieve it, and am sorry for that. Still, the commentary I was trying to point to did exist at one time. I will try to paraphrase, with apologies to Kevin. :

Back in the mid '80's, forged blades were a hard sell in many markets. Stainless dominated in many, if not most, parts of the country. The ABS needed something to elevate the forged blade to fulfill their goals. Considering the properties of forged blades, they came up with the fact that you could heat treat blades with differential hardness zones. That is difficult to do with stainless steels. Playing up the fact that they could thus bend instead of break, it was then promoted that the blades were thus superior, rather than simply "different".

If you were around custom knives back then, perhaps you remember. I have never forgotten, for it marked my separation from the ABS and left a bad taste in my mouth. It was my belief then as now that both have their advantages, and one shouldn't be denigrated to elevate the other. Honestly depict both without diminishing the other and let the customer choose.

Now, my only original point in all this was to respond to Jason Knight's comment regarding outsider comments about the ABS. My only contention was that it does become outsiders' concern if they are the object of some detrimental criticism to the benefit of the ABS.
I have no interest in debating this further, because I have no real interest in the ABS or the politics of the knife market. Anyone who knows me can tell you I have no truck with organizations.

I apologize again for my misleading pointer to Kevin's site. The commentary existed, or I wouldn't have cited it. I should have, however, verified its currency before I mentioned it here.

I'll drop out now and let those who care debate as they would.

 

[Gene Martin]

Mike,

I just looked at Kevin's site. The articles are there. http://www.cashenblades.com/articles/articles.html

Gene

 

[fitzo]

Thanks, Gene, but neither is the one I specifically had in mind. I searched old posts here for a bit, but didn't find what I know I have read before, there or here. I erred to not find it first and have a link to post.

In the long run, though, what I think or say is of little consequence. Things will go on much as they have, and the debates will persist. I have little interest unless someone is pissing down my leg; in that case, I retain the right to say something about it.

 

[deloid]

I'm just finishing a welding degree and a machinist degree.

Fortunately I don't have to worry about this argument but I do like reading the opposing points of view. That quote above struck me though. I'm pretty impressed with that Nick. You already have a great shop, great skill and you're still improving yourself.

I wish I had the time to do the same.

 

[Phil Dwyer]

....I'm pretty impressed with that Nick. You already have a great shop, great skill and you're still improving yourself. I wish I had the time to do the same.

I guess this is off post, but ++++++1 from me too Nick!!!

 

[Tai Goo]

The job of the American Bladesmith Society is to promote the forged blade above all else. I would be surprised and disappointed if the goal of the organization was to do anything else.

The goal of the ABS is to promote the ABS. To see it any other way is just plain naive.

 

[Tai Goo]

For the first 12 years or so of my bladesmithing career I was continually harassed by members of the ABS to join the group. Why? ... because they saw I was an up and comer (my work had been published in the mags etc.) and they wanted the ABS to get a big part of the credit for my work. Credit for which it had done nothing. When I asked them why I should join, (what's in it for me?) they would always say, Tai, if you join and get your MS stamp, you'll be able to sell your knives for more money. No other reason than that... I never jumped through their silly hoops and finally they gave up on me.

They tried to buy me,... but I wasn't for sale.

 

[DWinkler]

The ABS promotes the ABS. Lets take a look at that.

The ABS is an organization that has members that pay dues. A large percentage of these are working Bladesmiths trying to sell a few knives. It seems to make sense that the knives and people pictured in their publication and ads should come from these same members. As a paid member it would kind of rub me the wrong way if the directors decided that they should promote Tai Goo instead of Jason Knight, Nick Wheeler or me just because someone thinks “I guess we should be fair to the Bladesmiths that feel they don’t need our organization, gee we don’t want anyone to think we are biased to our members”.

If you feel this way I think there might be a place for you in National politics.

Fact is the ABS does promote people in the knife industry that are not members. I have demonstrated at several Hammer-ins and there are always guest demonstrators that are not members. I have taken classes at the school that were taught by non-members. These people are always promoted by the ABS.

Tai, you are a great maker. Your knives are beautiful and from what I have heard are very functional although I have never held one. I feel sure the promotions you have done are far reaching enough that I have personally benefited just because I make knives too. For this I thank you. But I also bet that somewhere, sometime you have benefited from the presence of the ABS. I know you don’t need it, and you might not even appreciate it, but don’t kid yourself, it has happened.

Daniel

Shame on those bad men that harassed you and made all those promises of fame and fortune.

 

[Tai Goo]

O.K. Daniel, I see your point. However, back when I was starting out so was the ABS. It wasn't what it is today. Although, there may have been some unseen/unknown benefits to me at some point there has also been a lot of bad mouthing. I guess that works both ways too…

 

[RogerP]

.....

......I will try to paraphrase, with apologies to Kevin. :

Back in the mid '80's, forged blades were a hard sell in many markets. Stainless dominated in many, if not most, parts of the country. The ABS needed something to elevate the forged blade to fulfill their goals. Considering the properties of forged blades, they came up with the fact that you could heat treat blades with differential hardness zones. That is difficult to do with stainless steels. Playing up the fact that they could thus bend instead of break, it was then promoted that the blades were thus superior, rather than simply "different".

If you were around custom knives back then, perhaps you remember. I have never forgotten, for it marked my separation from the ABS and left a bad taste in my mouth. It was my belief then as now that both have their advantages, and one shouldn't be denigrated to elevate the other. Honestly depict both without diminishing the other and let the customer choose.

fitzo - no problem man - I wasn't calling you out, it's just that I went to Kevin's site and didn't see what you were referring to. But let's assume that you have accurately paraphrased what was there: we're talking about the '80s, right? Yes, I was around custom knives back then and recall some questionable hype from some individual bladesmiths.

Hype is nothing new to the field of custom knives - it wasn't invented by bladesmiths and is certainly not restricted to bladesmiths. Yes, you can still find some bladesmiths today peddling hype in various forms. I see quite a bit of it in the sappy, syruppy romanticization of the craft of knifemaking, or the introduction of a lot of BS hocus-pocus mysticism to what is otherwise basic metallurgy. And I've seen such from individual bladesmiths both inside and outside the ABS. And let's not forget that some stock-removal makers deal their own kind of hype as well.

But you need to separate the conduct of a few individuals from the organization to which they claim mebership. Certainly the ABS today, as an organization, is not about misrepresenting the properties of a forged blade. Go to their hammer-ins, attend the lectures and seminars over which their members preside, attend their annual general meetings and talk to as many of their members as you can. I have, and there was no snake-oil on offer anywhere.

In fairness, you can't paint an organization with the sins of a couple individuals. Nor can you fairly point to the decades-old past and claim it represents the present without at least taking a fair look at the present. It would be no more fair for me to say that the Guild is to be condemned because some blowhard Guild member was spouting off about the near magical properties of the latest uber-stainless steel.

Just some food for thought.

Roger

 

[jdm61]

I scrolled through the posts on this thread and wanted to mention something that I did not see in my somewhat incomplete reading. The ABs was formed to preserve the art of the forged blade. What goes unmentioned is that its chosen methodology for doing this involved essentially throwing out the time honored tradition of holding ones hard earned knowledge close to your chest and only teaching them to a very small group of apprentices or family members, if anyone. With the coming of the ABS, the idea of "trade secrets" pretty much went out the window. Now while some naysayers might say that they would have done this anyway, I would be somewhat skeptical to say the least. That was not the business model, so to speak, in the past. In the case of the ABS, it was not a handful of rebellious types that gave away this information, but pretty much the entire organization. From what I have seen, someone who doesn't do this is seen as a bit of a curmudgeon. It is really interesting to see people, especially ones trying to make a living at forging knives, basically tell you pretty much everything about their process and essentially dare you to do it as well or better than they do.

 

[Tai Goo]

Why doesn't the ABS have any honorary master bladesmiths? Smiths who have made their mark in the real world and established themselves as "masters" without jumping through the ABS hoops?

Back when the ABS was starting out there just weren’t many smiths who had been around 20-30 years. Now there are quite a few.

Also, why doesn’t the ABS have a “masters thesis” program based more on the individual, and of the individual's own design and concept? These could be presented as “proposals” for consideration to the ABS hierarchy for approval, and judged in a similar fashion as what they have now.... or a voluntary review committee put together by the individual out of the existing mastersmiths. Why is the "test" the same for everyone?...

Can the ABS get out of it's box?

 

[Rick Marchand]

I scrolled through the posts on this thread and wanted to mention something that I did not see in my somewhat incomplete reading... the idea of "trade secrets" pretty much went out the window... basically tell you pretty much everything about their process and essentially dare you to do it as well or better than they do.

I have been reading through this thread for 2days and this particular post really nailed it for me... (sorry if I missed any previous posts touching on this)

It is my understanding that the ABS played a key role in openning the doors for new smiths, eager to learn. THAT is what its all about. There will always be debates on how organizations are run. Members will come and go... some will make bigger contributions than others and some will try to undermine the very foundation on which it stands.... thats what we do. Whether the ABS turns corrupt or not, is of little consequence, now. The founders have already succeded in what they set out to do, IMO. They played their part in knocking down barriers and lifting veils.

Though I may disagree with certain practices and politics, I am proud to support the original spirit of the ABS.


Rick

 

[butcher_block]

i would love to go to blade and have the ABS judges grade non member knives and asign jm and mm stamps to non forging makers
every test would be the same as it would prove you know how to worrk your steel and know how to get fit and finish right. it would also help a internet buyer to know what level a maker you are

some problems with this
would a MS that made a non forged blade then have to mark it with MM since he didnt hit it with a hammer ?

there are many other stopping blocks but it would be nice to see happen i would join the guild or the abs jsut to have something like this

 

[cdent]

Why doesn't the ABS have any honorary master bladesmiths? Smiths who have made their mark in the real world and established themselves as "masters" without jumping through the ABS hoops?...

Maybe if an organization puts guidelines out ahead of time, there's no misunderstanding of the requirements. I'm sure most of us have to live in our own versions of the real world. It's my understanding that there's an ABS rated MS that jumped though the hoops twice, possibly out of respect for the rules of the organization.

An MS thesis? It seems most of the ABS complaints are about people and personalities, not the concept. What if one of the folks that was reviewing your thesis had some personal heartburn for you. I'm pretty sure in writing, the ABS states that they in no way are denigrating those who choose other paths.

I don't see the 'help' of your proposals without rules that would box some folks in, but constructive ideas seem to be more helpful than just not liking the bad apples. I can't see how the ABS could be for everyone, even if MS stamps were free for the asking.

Take care, Craig