Edge Pro Matrix resin bond diamond stones

[Timmyboy]

Hi I was wondering if you could help me understand something.
If the purpose of dressing the stones is to remove the binder to expose fresh diamond what action takes place that the stone would require dressing again?
Do the exposed diamonds wear/dull with sharpening?

 

[Diemaker]

It depends on the grit and what happened to necessitate dressing. For the lower grits it would be using them with too much pressure so they no longer remove much metal. If you lighten up the pressure and use them a lot then the swarf will wear the resin and they will start to work properly again, but dressing is a whole lot faster and consistent. For the mid grits again too much pressure or they get loaded up too much for alcohol and a cloth to clean up. They may look clean but just don't cut the same. For the 2300 and especially the 4000 it is usually random deeper scratches, they still cut fine but leave random scratches in the bevel. I think this is larger pieces of debrise getting embedded in the resin but have never seen it in the stones under the microscope, but it wouldn't take much to cause those scratches.
If you keep the pressure light enough, what this is you will learn quick enough with some use, keep the swarf cleaned up between grits, use only edge trailing strokes, and take a few seconds to scrub the stones clean after using them in some water with your fingers, you should be able to go seveal hundred strokes before dressing even the 4k stone. I think the edge trailing strokes is a big deal especially for the finer grits. Under the microscope with the 4k stone with some knives I could see microchips in the apex with a deeper scratch where the chip got between the stone and bevel while doing an edge leading pass. Change to edge trailing passes and no more microchips. I think using edge trailing passes only does not just apply to the Matrix stones but to all stones so don't think this is an issue with Matrix stones only.

Ocelot85- Since that bevel is pretty wide I would try a little more pressure on the straight section of the blade to speed things up. How much pressure you can use depends on the surface area you are cutting, a thin bevel will be much less surface area so less pressure is in order. Do you have some sand to dress the 80 with, if you find you used too much pressure? I finally tried some of the 60 grit sic from EP and found it is not coarse enough to dress the 80, it needs something coarser.

 

[Georgeib]

Am in the process of buying a set of Matrix stones. Could anyone tell me if I need the 80 grit stone to re-profile an S35 and an M390 knife from their factory edges to something like 30 degrees inclusive? Thanks!

 

[DeadboxHero]

Am in the process of buying a set of Matrix stones. Could anyone tell me if I need the 80 grit stone to re-profile an S35 and an M390 knife from their factory edges to something like 30 degrees inclusive? Thanks!

I'd say yes but not because it's S35VN or M390, it just really speeds up the process and will make it more enjoyable to use the system. That stone will do all the hard work then you can smooth out the finish with the 220, 650, 1k etc.

 

[Diemaker]

The 80 grit stone will be roughly, very roughly, 10 times faster than the 250 at removing metal. If you are getting all of the rest of the stones then get the 80 grit, you won't regret it.

 

[David Richardson]

What Deadboxhero said. Recently got one. Night and day difference for re-profiling. I'm doing a lot of material removal on a K390 blade somebody jacked up. I'd liekly be at it for hours without the 80 grit stone.

 

[Georgeib]

Sounds like I'm going to need to go ahead and bite the bullet and get the entire set...

Holy moly, I'm going to have almost $700 in the Hapstone, stones, strops, etc. And to think that I was avoiding the Wicked Edge and Tromek because of the price tag.

 

[Mo2]

Sounds like I'm going to need to go ahead and bite the bullet and get the entire set...

Holy moly, I'm going to have almost $700 in the Hapstone, stones, strops, etc. And to think that I was avoiding the Wicked Edge and Tromek because of the price tag.

Why? Do you absolutely need that polished edge for opening the mail or cutting boxes? Are you a sushi chef?

What's wrong with a nice toothy edge? I use a 4 stone progression usually then move onto strops. It's more than enough for most people. I know alot of folks have to get that mirror edge for there safe knives. Not sure why. But if the cost is worth it for you and you have the funds. Sure.

 

[Georgeib]

Why? Do you absolutely need that polished edge for opening the mail or cutting boxes? Are you a sushi chef?

What's wrong with a nice toothy edge? I use a 4 stone progression usually then move onto strops. It's more than enough for most people. I know alot of folks have to get that mirror edge for there safe knives. Not sure why. But if the cost is worth it for you and you have the funds. Sure.

Honestly, it's more of personal satisfaction thing. But that said, which of the grits would you get? I'm not at all opposed to the idea of "good enough".

Please bear in mind that my experience with knife sharpening is very rudimentary (pretty much total newb). I'm thinking that I'll really only use the 80 grit stone a handful of times anyway to change the angle from factory, after that I'll really only need to progress through the grits the initial time to get the edge where I want it. I imagine after that it'll just be maintenance, which by what I read, is mainly going to involve the higher grits and/or strops. Right?

 

[Mo2]

It all varies on what you like. I'd personally get enough stones to put up to a 1000 grit edge on. But you may want to do something different depending on what you cut. Or what you like.

I already invested in diamond metallic bonded stones before edge pro had these stones for sale. otherwise I would have got the edge pro stones instead. I myself don't need more than 1000 grit. And often stop around 400 to 600 with what I currently use.

I'm not trying stop you from buying things but from your prior post it appeared that you are investing alot of money into something your not to sure about. Hence my reply. You don't have to spend all that money if you don't need to. Generally the knives that come from the factory or a custom maker are going to be ground on a belt to around 300 grit give or take. If you find factory grinds satisfactory, then use that as a guide for your purchase. As long as your not making huge jumps in grits you should be fine with what you want in an edge. By all means if you want the full set get it. I don't see any issues with that. I only replied this way because you said your invested alot into it already and if you know what you want you don't have to make it that much.

 

[David Richardson]

Here's my take: get what you want. Maybe buy one stone first and see how you like it? I have a hard time imagining how you would be disappointed in these if you have any of the more challenging steels to sharpen. I have no need for mirror edges. I put a mirror on my Maxamet Native 5 and seems to have no less edge retention and looks cool.

I just re-profiled that K390 blade (Spyderco Mule) mentioned above. Took longer than I expected. Went from 15 degrees to 20 - a good amount of edge had to come off. Once that was done I went through the other stones quickly. It would cut printer paper when I was done with the 80 grit. It would curl paper after the 250. It cut thin strips of newsprint after the 650 + a strop. I used a 5-micron wood strop after the 1100 stone. That cleanly cut a paper shop towel held loosely.

 

[Diemaker]

You are right about the 80 being a one time use stone to get the angle where you want it, after that you shouldn't need it to keep your knife sharp unless you really damage it. The 250 can reprofile but it will be very slow, frustratingly slow if your doing much work. The 4k is nice but if you are going to drop one I would start there. The 2300 will leave a real nice edge especially if you strop it lightly, I doubt you would complain about the edge the 1100 leaves. You can always cheat a little by using no added pressure on the last few strokes of the last grit, it does leave smaller scratches on your bevel when you do this. I would say if you want to save money start with the coarsest stones on your list and go up from there as you wish.

 

[OhioApexing]

The 4k is nice but if you are going to drop one I would start there. The 2300 will leave a real nice edge especially if you strop it lightly, I doubt you would complain about the edge the 1100 leaves.

This is sage advice. I’ve been using the full lineup on every knife I’ve sharpened for the past couple of months. The 4000 grit leaves a damn-near perfect mirror polish. However, it’s almost too good.

I’ve noticed that my edges are very fine and extremely sharp coming off of the 4000, but at the expense of bite and aggression. Last night I sharpened a M4 PM2 and stopped at the 2300 stone and jumped straight to a 4 micron diamond emulsion on basswood, followed by a 2 micron on basswood. The aggression was better, but I think I might try stopping at the 1100 next time and going to strops.

 

[David Richardson]

This is sage advice. I’ve been using the full lineup on every knife I’ve sharpened for the past couple of months. The 4000 grit leaves a damn-near perfect mirror polish. However, it’s almost too good.

I’ve noticed that my edges are very fine and extremely sharp coming off of the 4000, but at the expense of bite and aggression. Last night I sharpened a M4 PM2 and stopped at the 2300 stone and jumped straight to a 4 micron diamond emulsion on basswood, followed by a 2 micron on basswood. The aggression was better, but I think I might try stopping at the 1100 next time and going to strops.

Agree. Most pro sharpeners and makers will tell you that a toothy edge will cut longer. I tend to believe that but haven't measured it. Cedric & Ada just got his best result on Maxamet from a polished edge. However, different knife than he's used before. Would be good to see side-by-side comparison. Of course most of us don't cut rope all day.

 

[OhioApexing]

Agree. Most pro sharpeners and makers will tell you that a toothy edge will cut longer. I tend to believe that but haven't measured it. Cedric & Ada just got his best result on Maxamet from a polished edge. However, different knife than he's used before. Would be good to see side-by-side comparison. Of course most of us don't cut rope all day.

There are some applications where I greatly prefer an extremely polished edge. There are others where I do not. I think what I was getting at is that the 4000 can polish the bite off of an edge and it’s up to you if that’s a bad thing. It was for me in that specific sharpening, as I was trying to maintain some bite while taking the apex to a very narrow radius.

At the end of the day, these stones are fantastic as a set because you can establish just about any type of edge you desire.

 

[Ocelot85]

It depends on the grit and what happened to necessitate dressing. For the lower grits it would be using them with too much pressure so they no longer remove much metal. If you lighten up the pressure and use them a lot then the swarf will wear the resin and they will start to work properly again, but dressing is a whole lot faster and consistent. For the mid grits again too much pressure or they get loaded up too much for alcohol and a cloth to clean up. They may look clean but just don't cut the same. For the 2300 and especially the 4000 it is usually random deeper scratches, they still cut fine but leave random scratches in the bevel. I think this is larger pieces of debrise getting embedded in the resin but have never seen it in the stones under the microscope, but it wouldn't take much to cause those scratches.
If you keep the pressure light enough, what this is you will learn quick enough with some use, keep the swarf cleaned up between grits, use only edge trailing strokes, and take a few seconds to scrub the stones clean after using them in some water with your fingers, you should be able to go seveal hundred strokes before dressing even the 4k stone. I think the edge trailing strokes is a big deal especially for the finer grits. Under the microscope with the 4k stone with some knives I could see microchips in the apex with a deeper scratch where the chip got between the stone and bevel while doing an edge leading pass. Change to edge trailing passes and no more microchips. I think using edge trailing passes only does not just apply to the Matrix stones but to all stones so don't think this is an issue with Matrix stones only.

Ocelot85- Since that bevel is pretty wide I would try a little more pressure on the straight section of the blade to speed things up. How much pressure you can use depends on the surface area you are cutting, a thin bevel will be much less surface area so less pressure is in order. Do you have some sand to dress the 80 with, if you find you used too much pressure? I finally tried some of the 60 grit sic from EP and found it is not coarse enough to dress the 80, it needs something coarser.

I have plenty of play sand from my sons sandbox, and I also have old ceramic tiles left from the previous home owner and their renovations so I planned on using that once I need to dress it. I was going to update my post to the thread but I've had some on going sicknesses that have side lined me and I've been busy making purchases for my knife shop. Once these sicknesses get sorted out I'll continue sharpening that blade as well and post my results. I'm seriously considering regrinding that blade and giving it a nice hollow grind, since I've bought it it's been extremely thick behind the edge since it has a low cut saber grind.

 

[Georgeib]

In order to avoid regret, I went ahead and ordered the entire set plus the 240 grit AlOx leveling kit, directly from Edge Pro. Sounds like I'll be needing some sand too... Now the waiting!

 

[Blues]

In order to avoid regret, I went ahead and ordered the entire set plus the 240 grit AlOx leveling kit, directly from Edge Pro. Sounds like I'll be needing some sand too... Now the waiting!

That's the spirit!

 

[Mr.Wizard]

A video review from TheApostleP. It's certainly positive overall, but he reports that the stones last "up to 150 knives" (14:00) which falls rather short of the "last a lifetime" expectation. I suspect that his cleaning these with Ajax and sandpaper isn't helping things. Can the loading he is experiencing be avoided?

 

[OhioApexing]

A video review from TheApostleP. It's certainly positive overall, but he reports that the stones last "up to 150 knives" (14:00) which falls rather short of the "last a lifetime" expectation. I suspect that his cleaning these with Ajax and sandpaper isn't helping things. Can the loading he is experiencing be avoided?

I’ve probably done 50 sharpenings with my set and I can say with all certainty that they are nowhere near 1/3rd worn. Depending on technique and lapping, I think I could get thousands of sharpenings out of them.

I’m not at all trying to call him out nor start drama, but I’ve always taken his videos with a grain of salt. We all have our techniques and preferences, mine are simply different. But I want to say that David and EP explicitly say to only use alcohol, dish soap, and water to clean the stones between lapping. Anything else can harm the resin.

EDIT: I also wanted to pop in here and say that I lapped the big 80 grit with the EP flattening kit and the SiC powder. It did a great job after the grains broke down a little. I would recommend giving the stone a good scrub afterward to ensure all of the SiC has been removed.

Also, to your question, I clean my stones as I go. I use my finger to loosen up the loading with some soapy water and wipe it off. I give the 650, 1100, 2300, and 4000 grits a brief lapping session with the flattening kit and AlOx powder about every 5 sharpening jobs. It isn’t necessary, but I really like the aggressiveness of the stones when they’re freshly lapped. I also prefer a really aggressive edge. If you’re looking for a super fine, very smooth polished edge, the stones do better in that regard when they’re a little loaded up.