Edge Sharpness Tester

Jason, looks like I'll be joining that testing group with you, and that's also one of the biggest draws to it for me. Being able to work out a progression, and define with a common scale the result. That way, I can compare my own processes to each other to determine which *actually* gives a sharper edge, not just the one that grabs my thumb better, etc. And also compare them to *your* edges and other guy's edges, to see how well I am doing!

For instance, I'm fairly good with the belt grinder and loaded compound belts. I'd love to see how an edge finished like that compares to a waterstone-finished edge! I see this as a lot like the grit chart, to be honest. It doesn't tell you how the edge/abrasive will perform in actual use, but it gives you a basis for a *meaningful* comparison.
 
Chris "Anagarika";14738680 said:
I think he means "Jason B.", a professional sharpener & member of this forum. I can suggest a list of these acknowledged 'resident experts' in addition to Ankerson & Jason mentioned, all is their forum handle: "bluntcut", "HeavyHanded", "unit", "Obsessed With Edges ", "David Martin", "stitchawl", "ohallum", "awestib", IIRC all resides in US and can participate in a pass around .
Click to expand...

Thanks Chris. I forgot to check this thread for some time. :o
 
Rupert,

You're welcome!

I'm curious but live too far, and currently don't think have a need (sharpening is more of a hobby). By having more exposure through some experts here and their sharing will benefit my curiosity and others who has the need might find it the right tool (or not). No disrespect intended to other experts that inadvertently not mentioned (I have learnt much from their knowledge sharing). :thumbup:

Singularity,

Anytime man ;)
 
Last edited:
Well I think there is still one spot left for inconsistency and that's the loading of the test media. It is stated throughout the manual that loading it too tight or not tight enough will effect the results. So with that in mind, if I sent a knife by mail to a person with the same device and test media but they tightened their media much more, wouldn't that effect the BESS result? Have you done any testing to see how much the taughtness of the string influences the BESS number?

In other words, if a BESS of 75 is "scary sharp" and you send it through the mail and someone doesn't tightened their test media enough, how much is the number likely to change? 10 points? 20, 30? Curious not critical.
 
KennyB

Moments ago I, forwarded your question to Mike Brubacher (designer of the instrument) for sure no later than tomorrow morning we will have Mike's answer.

There are other owners that may come forward during the evening.

Today I was talking with Don B. in Arkansas and he was today consistently getting readings of 100 (+/- 5) on inexpensive kitchen knives, that is comparable to the edge on a premium utility razor blade (Bess Measurement 100/150). A "double edge Razor blade" (Bess measurement (+/-10)).

Your question will be answered and for sure it is appreciated.
 
My only real critical opinion of this device is the cost. Perhaps it's just me and my own financial situation but I would much more quickly spend $160 on another knife, more sharpening equipment, etc. That's a pretty penny to me.

But I really like the idea of the "BESS" number and having an uniform level of sharpness to convey. Even when we talk about "hair whittling" there's always differences between hair type, humidity, etc.

I think it would be interesting for someone to do some extensive testing with the test media in different levels of humidity, temperature, tautness, etc. and see how it all effects the resulting BESS numbers. It might shed a little light on what the expected tolerances are to be for environmental factors. So for example, if you mailed a knife to someone and they got a 10 pt difference, it would be great if there was something to explain that versus trying to theorize it dulled in the mail or something.
 
KennyB

Do us all a favor - call Mike Brubacher 480 622 8859 that is the telephone for - Edge On Up - in Phoenix Arizona Mike has a machine ready to ship to another prospective "tester" who was sugested by another member(s) of this Forum and that person has not provided a UPS ship to address.

IT IS NOW YOURS: call Mike and provide your UPS ship to address (lower 48 hopefully) and that said machine is on it's way to you, YOU.

No BS! make that telephone call now! - done deal with Edge On Up - Mike will be the man taking your call - not some remote device and/or answering service. THERE IS NO MICROSOFT, BATTERIES or other "crap" in or outside in ref to the EST KN 100.

"Make that call now" I, am not a TV "pitch man" the Edge Tester EST KN 100 in Phoenix is awaiting your ship to address.

Have a great day.

Rupert
Here in Louisiana
 
Last edited:
KennyB said:
Well I think there is still one spot left for inconsistency and that's the loading of the test media. It is stated throughout the manual that loading it too tight or not tight enough will effect the results. So with that in mind, if I sent a knife by mail to a person with the same device and test media but they tightened their media much more, wouldn't that effect the BESS result? Have you done any testing to see how much the taughtness of the string influences the BESS number?

In other words, if a BESS of 75 is "scary sharp" and you send it through the mail and someone doesn't tightened their test media enough, how much is the number likely to change? 10 points? 20, 30? Curious not critical.
Click to expand...

Good Morning Rupert!

Excellent question regarding test media tensioning. The question is most likely best addressed by separating it into two parts and then answering it from two different perspectives. When sharpness testing instrumentation precision is most useful is when one is trying to determine the efficacy of one sharpening methodology versus another. This is as opposed to final sharpness data where, to my way of thinking anyhow, a knife sharpened to 255 versus 270 is going to be transparent in practice to the user. To that point, here would be an example of an efficacy experiment; I have stropped the edge using one of the old leather belts I found in my grandfathers attic and then taken a test measurement which yielded a BESS value of 128. Now I will strop with the $100.00 strop I just purchased and see if there is some improvement. This is a "relative" measurement where you are asking the instrument to resolve small differences in sharpness levels. The baseline now is not a DE razor blade but rather an edge stropped using your grandfather's belt. The second way of looking at this question is best described precisely under the scenario proposed by the originator. In this case we are looking for a repeatable result using two different instruments at two different geographic locations. This then would be a test of "absolute accuracy". Using relative measurement techniques it is not important whether the test media is tight or loose (within reasonable bounds) as long as the same approximate tension is maintained for both measurements. Conversely, in absolute measurements both users must be on the same page tension wise or an additional and additive error of 10-15 points (grams) may be introduced to the results. I think that for most users with at least some experience with the instrument this is not an issue due to the fact that the test media tensioning is so straight forward but my experience in the instrumentation business tells me that there is little doubt that someone will figure out a way to induce an additional error into the process. It's really no different than when your mom took your temperature as a kid with a thermometer. There were certain things she needed to do and certain things she shouldn't do in order to achieve the most accurate result. In all but the most egregious cases however the thermometer result was much more definitive than a hand placed on the forehead (no offense intended to particularly skilled moms using tactile methodologies). I hope that this explanation helps a bit.

Mike Brubacher
Edge On Up
 
Twindog said:
You might want to look at Anderson's thread in the review section. Jim and a number of the regular posters in that thread would be a good place to start.
Click to expand...

Other Forum members have been unable to get in contact with Mr. Jim Ankerson and let him know that there is a EST KN 100 with his name on it in Phoenix, Arizona ready to ship to his UPS address.

Mr. Ankerson: please contact Edge On Up telephone number 480 622 8859 and provide your UPS ship to address in the lower 48. And your testers instrument will be on it's way to wherever in the lower 48. You will not have to wait on the "Arkansas ridge runner", Don B to arrive in June.

If any member knows how to contact Mr. Ankerson please do so. How often does a Manufacture give Forum members the privilege to select there own evaluators. I, am 83 years old and have never experienced it in my life span.

That will be the fifth unit that Mike Brubacher owner of Edge On Up had committed to us Blade Forum members for evaluation.

Let me say thanks to all you fellow sharpener for what you have done for me.

Thanks again
Rupert
 
Last edited:
Pretty cool pass around of a neat machine IMHO; it'll be interesting to see what sort of feedback surfaces. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::cool:
 
rlucius said:
Other Forum members have been unable to get in contact with Mr. Jim Ankerson and let him know that there is a EST KN 100 with his name on it in Phoenix, Arizona ready to ship to his UPS address.

Mr. Ankerson: please contact Edge On Up telephone number 480 622 8859 and provide your UPS ship to address in the lower 48. And your testers instrument will be on it's way to wherever in the lower 48. You will not have to wait on the "Arkansas ridge runner", Don B to arrive in June.

If any member knows how to contact Mr. Ankerson please do so. How often does a Manufacture give Forum members the privilege to select there own evaluators. I, am 83 years old and have never experienced it in my life span.

That will be the fifth unit that Mike Brubacher owner of Edge On Up had committed to us Blade Forum members for evaluation.

Let me say thanks to all you fellow sharpener for what you have done for me.

Thanks again
Rupert
Click to expand...


OK, I will give him a call. :)
 
Mike is a fun guy to talk to, too. I spent about a half hour on the phone with him last night, talking sharpening, test methodology, edge behaviour and soforth. I'm looking forward like crazy to trying this out! I've already thought up quite a few ideas for ways I want to use the test unit to experiment with some things I've observed with my edges.
 
Czechmate said:
Pretty cool pass around of a neat machine IMHO; it'll be interesting to see what sort of feedback surfaces. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::cool:
Click to expand...

This is a BOLO or APB for: DAVID Obsessed with Edges

Your name is on a ship to list at Edge On Up for an evaluation unit: Please call Mike Brubacker in Phoenix at telephone 480 622 8859 he needs your UPS ship to address.

New Mexico being next door to Arizona - your unit will deliver quicker than Washington State, Rochester NY and other ship to States.

Mike, would like to ship the "testers" their Edge Sharpness Tester tomorrow Friday or coming Monday for sure the units need to "roll".

Thanks
 
Last edited:
rlucius said:
This is a BOLO or APB for: DAVID Obsessed with Edges

Your name is on a ship to list at Edge On Up for an evaluation unit: Please call Mike Brubacker in Phoenix at telephone 480 622 8859 he needs your UPS ship to address.

New Mexico is next door to Arizona - your unit may deliver quicker than Washington State, Rochester NY and other ship to States.

Mike, would like to ship the "testers" their Edge Sharpness Tester tomorrow Friday or coming Monday for sure the units need to "roll".

Thanks
Click to expand...


You are awfully passionate about this device. I apologize for my previous skepticism as it just seemed odd to me someone would invest this much personal time into making someone else money but it appears like you just really like this machine....

I eagerly await the cost/benefit and review results by some of the people given testers.
 
Lynus

Call Mike Brubacher at 480 622 8859 and ask Mike for my telephone number and he will pass it along to YOU. Use that number to contact me -

Thanks
Rupert
 
rlucius said:
It's like you have been stumbling around inside a dark room for years and then someone flips on the light switch.
Click to expand...
I have been freehand sharpening for around 35 years, and the only things I have ever needed to test the sharpness of a blade are the things I was born with- my fingers. I stroke the pads of my fingers/thumb gently across the edge, and that tells me how sharp it is. And if I want to check for a burr, I use the edge of my thumbnail. These methods have always served me well. I certainly wouldn't say that I've been stumbling around in the dark.

I don't know what other people do with their knives that they need some sort of precise measurement of their blades sharpness. Personally, I have been depending on the sharpness of my blades to earn a living for the past 29 years, doing things like landscaping, shipping, and construction.

When it comes to putting a sharp edge on my blades, and whenever possible in life, I prefer to rely on skill derived from practice and experience, rather than gadgetry. But to each their own. If someone wants to spend $160 on such a device, it's a fee country. Guess I won't be a customer.
 
Gentlemen,

As a non formal engineer that work within the testing environment

Testing how sharp the knife is after sharping is only the start
Using after sharping as the start point you can then test the sharpness with use
This use curve is actually the information we need as users

If very skilled sharpener can get to sharp a edge to A++, but with usage the edge quickly goes to A+ and then stays at A for a long plateau period of use
We then could say the target sharpening would be A and if you can get to A+ that would be nice, but A++ is not a needed realistic target

Also what is the range of usable sharpness will tell us which steels might be more useful
We already have plenty of anecdotal knowledge
We know a SAK gets sharp then drops off fast, but that is okay cause we can sharpen it easily
D2 is harder to sharpen but lasts longer

I am not sure how we will use this calibrated data
scientific it will not be until you start methodical testing
 
neeman said:
Gentlemen,

As a non formal engineer that work within the testing environment

Testing how sharp the knife is after sharping is only the start
Using after sharping as the start point you can then test the sharpness with use
This use curve is actually the information we need as users

If very skilled sharpener can get to sharp a edge to A++, but with usage the edge quickly goes to A+ and then stays at A for a long plateau period of use
We then could say the target sharpening would be A and if you can get to A+ that would be nice, but A++ is not a needed realistic target

Also what is the range of usable sharpness will tell us which steels might be more useful
We already have plenty of anecdotal knowledge
We know a SAK gets sharp then drops off fast, but that is okay cause we can sharpen it easily
D2 is harder to sharpen but lasts longer

I am not sure how we will use this calibrated data
scientific it will not be until you start methodical testing
Click to expand...

This has been my thoughts on the whole BESS test. I would hate to see manufacturers optimize toward initial sharpness because there are few real world applications that require this. A knife needs to be "sharp enough" and stay "sharp enough", how sharp you can get a knife is interesting and a demonstration of skill but doesn't have much practical application. The idea of having one of these to perfect your sharpening skills and to be used at the knife users end isn't bad, however, like others have said here do we really need to spend $160+ to tell us a knife is sharp? In a lot of cases you can tell how sharp a knife is as soon as you go to use it, this type of test costs nothing and there is no penalty if the knife isn't sharp.

Most things we bother to quantify have a specific, useful intent. I want to accurately measure how much fuel I have in my car so while a float is ok, I'm willing to pay extra for a sonar sensor in an isolated chamber to get a more accurate measurement. This is because this measurement is important to me, I don't want to unexpectedly run out of fuel and become stranded. In knives, initial sharpness from the factory is a "like to have" but certainly not a need to have because it is going to go away. I don't care if the knife can push cut wet toilet paper if the blade is made of pot metal and can't hold an edge through a strip of cardboard. I'd much prefer a knife that is dull out of the box but made from a good steel that has been expertly heat treated.

In the other thread CharlieSoxx made the analogy of a thermometer and this test being only the temperature but not the wind, precipitation or humidity, all factors contributing to the "weather". The implication seemed to be that sharpness was the greatest measure of knife and gave you the best indication for the utility of a knife. To me this seems like the most trivial factor within a reasonable range. Obviously you can cross a threshold where a knife doesn't have utility because it simply can't cut, but an S90V blade with a working edge may score very poorly on the "BESS" scale but could out-cut a 440A blade sharpened to a razor edge in the long run.
 
I too am looking forward to giving this machine a thorough examination. The one weakness I see in it at this point is that it only tests push cutting sharpness, not slicing sharpness, which is something I would like to compare first hand as people such as (yes I am about to say the forbidden word *gasp* lol) Cliff Stamp have done showing that coarser edges have longer edge retention with certain steels. Nonetheless I am very interested in giving this a go for myself =)
 
razor-edge-knives said:
I too am looking forward to giving this machine a thorough examination. The one weakness I see in it at this point is that it only tests push cutting sharpness, not slicing sharpness, which is something I would like to compare first hand as people such as (yes I am about to say the forbidden word *gasp* lol) Cliff Stamp have done showing that coarser edges have longer edge retention with certain steels. Nonetheless I am very interested in giving this a go for myself =)
Click to expand...

There has to be some means of using it with or without lengthwise movement (I hope). There is quite a difference in cutting when comparing dynamic to static. In my philosophy with most steels it is directed pressure that kills an edge, so whatever edge finish/movement pattern allows one to execute the cut with the least amount of pressure will have the greatest longevity. The specific material to be cut has a lot to do with this...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top