emerson quality

"I wouldn't trade any of my custom 1911's for 6 Beretta 92's!!!!!!!"

Too bad. I've seen $2000-$3000 custom 1911's jam during qualification exams in LFI. Never have I seen a Beretta 92FS jam.

"Unless you still haven't grown out of the hicap mag fettish."

Fettish? No, just icing on the cake. Plus, I can shoot more and reload less. A nice little advantage under stress. IDPA rules really handicap this advantage. :rolleyes:

"I did also polish the feed ramp of my 1911 (well, all three of them) w/ a Dremel, but do that to every handgun I guy before I even shoot it the first time."

No need to on a Beretta 92. Mine are box stock.

"And such a package with high quality 185gr, 200gr, or 230gr hollow points compares quite favorably with a 9mm Beretta 92FS in my experience, especially in terms of trigger and shoot-ability."

A 115/124 gr. +P+ JHP does the job just fine thank you. Besides, I can rip off 3-4 well placed shots to most .45 owners' 1-2. I've done it in one-on-one training drills. They usually just look at me and shake their head after they lose.Never understood the DA/SA trigger transition problem. Never experienced it. NOW THAT's Hype IMHO, from 1911 devotees.:p

"Of course, handgun preferences are like bungholes...everybody has one. This is just mine, and I've used it for a while now."

Agreed.:)
 
Brigadier, the 1911 analogy is cool and everything, but what does disassembling a knife have anything to do with the workmanship? Why must I have to disassemble my knife if it's brand new? Emerson's folders and most of Benchmade's are of open back design which allows for easy cleaning. I can understand the need to disassemble it if it's grimy, bloody or muddy, but the question is not whether you void the warranty by doing so, and no one is disputing the fact that Emerson knives for the most part come sharp. The issue at hand is the lack of QC that is being seen. No one disputes that fact that other companies have "bad" ones that slip by as well, but it's not a constant thing.

The issue is that when you buy an Emerson, you're not paying $39.99 or $50.00 for it, you're generally paying over $100 up to $200 MSRP for one of their folding knives. When I pay that kind of money, I expect to get a quality knife that is not going to look crappy and used in just a few days of handling (without actually using it), I expect a knife with a solid lockup that won't wear out quickly, I expect a knife that won't have stop pins that rattle in the handle and pivot pins that keep coming loose. Basically, a knife that I won't have to disassemble for adjustment as soon as I buy the darn thing. Is that too much to ask for a high end folder? If my folder has these problems, how am I going to believe that it will handle hard use?
 
"I've seen $2000-$3000 custom 1911's jam during qualification exams in LFI."

These were probably NEW custom guns straight from the gunsmith. Shooters probably didn't even break them in. Probably was a rush job to get done for the school and they didn't have time to break them in. All guns will malfuntion at some time or another. You are so sure of your Beretta, hope you are 'practicing' clearing jams!!! It will happen!!! Remember Mr. Murphy.

"Fettish? No, just icing on the cake. Plus, I can shoot more and reload less. A nice little advantage under stress."

All the new Beretta 92's are 10 rounders!!! Who in the world wants a 10 round double stacker??? What in the world do you pay for after market large capacity mags for it??? If I had a choice between 8 rounds of 45 or 10 rounds of 9mm???? Hard choice.

"I did also polish the feed ramp of my 1911 (well, all three of them) w/ a Dremel, but do that to every handgun I buy before I even shoot it the first time."

I'm sure RDangerer wouldn't have had to do this to his Kimber. I'm sure it would have fed right from the box, too!!!!!!

"A 115/124 gr. +P+ JHP does the job just fine thank you. Besides, I can rip off 3-4 well placed shots to most .45 owners' 1-2."

I'm glad you can rip off 4 or 5 well placed shots with your 9 mm. It will take that many to stop the bad guy. You only need ONE well placed shot with a 45!!!! Yes the 9mm is a very good round for the recoil sensitive shooter!!!!

"Of course, handgun preferences are like bungholes...everybody has one."

I agree too!!!!!;)
 
Originally posted by Brigadier
Too bad. I've seen $2000-$3000 custom 1911's jam during qualification exams in LFI. Never have I seen a Beretta 92FS jam.

At my LFI class, we even had a Glock magazine break... the follower broke. Mas Ayoob had never seen a Glock mag break before in any of his classes, and he teaches a few ;) , so he grabbed his camera and took some pics. If you hang around any training class long enough, or any shooting range long enough, you'll see every type of gun jam, even Glocks and SIGS and Beretta's and Heinie & Novak & Laughridge & Dave Lauck 1911's ... even a Rem 870. It is a matter of time only. Clearing exercises are a must.

It is the shooter's responsibility to make sure their gun shoots reliably and then you must maintain that gun. I even had a Taurus revolver that jammed... sheesh..."revolvers aren't supposed to jam", and not from a bad crimp and bullet displacement either. I had it fixed by a gunsmith (something internal) and sold it. That was my lesson on Taurus vs. S&W. No more.

Originally posted by Brigadier
"Unless you still haven't grown out of the hicap mag fettish."

Fettish? No, just icing on the cake. Plus, I can shoot more and reload less. A nice little advantage under stress. IDPA rules really handicap this advantage.

I used to think more was better too. Then I decided that you have to carry a backup magazine no matter how many rounds you had in your primary. Mags can break, like guns can jam. I also decided that those first 3-4 rounds were absolutely critical. I then chose a big fat .45 acp for those rounds. They need to be very well placed in one or two people typically. The second group of 3-4 rounds is rarely fired in most civilian gun fights. A second magazine full? Not unless you are a spray-n-pray type, or in a true gun battle with multiple people, or your mag went south.

I will say that if I were a cop, I'd probably carry a Glock 22 (40S&W)with hicap mags. (Cops are rarely allowed to carry .45acp, although state troopers sometimes get to). But I'd have a damned 12 ga and a damned .223 carbine in the trunk too! (remember the LA bank robbers!) Cops may get into true gun battles where they must take down the perp, they can't or aren't supposed to totally leave the scene if you see what I mean. Civilians ought to generally be looking to make solid hits and/or find cover (order depends), make solid hits, and then find a way to get the hell out of there.

Your analysis of what's important may vary from that ... well, Brigadier's already did.

Originally posted by Brigadier
No need to [polish the feed ramp] on a Beretta 92. Mine are box stock.

Good for you. You minimized your work load. By that logic, no need to polish a SIG or Glock or a Kimber feed ramp. However, my own personal logic varies... it is a simple task and can make any semi-auto pistol a somewhat more reliable feeding gun if the mags are already good. Directionally, it is a simple and effective modification.

Originally posted by Brigadier
A 115/124 gr. +P+ JHP does the job just fine thank you. Besides, I can rip off 3-4 well placed shots to most .45 owners' 1-2. I've done it in one-on-one training drills. They usually just look at me and shake their head after they lose.Never understood the DA/SA trigger transition problem. Never experienced it. NOW THAT's Hype IMHO, from 1911 devotees.

I would agree, I can shoot a 9mm faster than a .45acp also. I noticed the guys at LFI who shot 9mm could complete their course of fire (6 or 12 rounds) a couple tenths of a second faster than I could with my .45acp (twice the bullet weight, twice the recoil). And they didn't score any better. And you know what, Ayoob makes notes on which gun you complete his courses with. If he goes to court on your behalf, he can say "yep, this guy shot a 295 in our police qualifier with a .45acp, and so sure, he was qualified to have been carrying that 9mm when he shot that @$$hole, for sure. The .45acp is a more demanding gun to shoot." You wouldn't want him to be in the converse position.

I can also shoot a 20ga faster than I can shoot a 12ga. That doesn't mean I take my 20ga duck or goose hunting. Or my .223 deer hunting. And that analogy is an "ok" analogy also. And I also ended up, with the same capability of choosing 9mm over .45acp, choosing .45acp when it was all done.

And I'll say that if someone is more comfortable and confident shooting a 9mm, they should do that. In fact, when somebody asks me what I'd recommend in a self defense pistol, I ask if they are willing to practice with it (if not, revolver in .38sp) and I ask if their wife might/can/would use it, and if so, I recommend a 9mm. And I'm not saying you are a "woman" if you shoot a 9mm. It is the minimum round I'd carry if I was betting my life on a pistol. And 9mm is, in general, easier for most women to handle effectively for that 2nd and 3rd round.

I used to think a light/fast 115/124gr +P etc was "as good" as a .45acp, when I was learning anyway. I used to think "95% stopping power! Yeah! And I can shoot it faster". I read Marshall & Sanow "Street Stoppers" and "Handgun Stopping Power", et al. And I re-read M&S a couple MORE times. Pretty good work, has some methodological problems, but probably better than most any other work out there. Even the FBI goofed in selecting 9mm subsonic for a while. And I read the side of the slow/fast crowd. And I figured out that you had to be very selective about which 9mm rounds you chose, but well chosen, it is an effective round, approaching .40S&W and .45acp when you hit fleshy targets. And then I also noticed that in M&S, it almost didn't matter which .45acp round you chose, so long as you found a hollow point, and found one that fed reliably in your gun. That says to me "it is VERY hard to beat a .45acp hollow point" in terms of versatility, I repeat, versatility against a human target. It took me a while to figure that out. But I'm pretty much done thinking about it.

If the 9mm 115/124 expands, you get a nice fat projectile ... IF it expands. If it plugs on clothing, you don't. Same goes for .45acp, except that if it doesn't expand, it's still pretty good diameter and heavy. If you hit bone, or shoot through a car glass or windshield or autobody metal, I'll take the freight train called 230gr Hydrashok anyday over a light/fast. And I also used to think I wanted to minimize overpenetration. No longer. Not after hunting animals (deer). Downrange liability is a tiny probability really. You want a hole out the other side for them to bleed out of, I am absolutely convinced of that. But I'm tired of typing.

It's a debate, and many have argued the pros/cons of both. I used to also. I used to always wonder why Walt Rauch didn't join in the debates on some of the handgun type forums. Then I figured it out. Then I sold all of my 9mm's and all my .40S&W except my Glock 27 for CCW. I decided to kind of "standardize" on .45acp for the car and home. I used to think the 1911 officionado's were over the top and slavish in their devotion. Then I figured it out... the trigger and ergonomics are about as good as it gets, for a lot of people. And so I own 3 1911's (all Kimbers) and 1 Glock in .45acp.

Brigadier, have you shot a 1911? Glock? Sig? If you have and you chose Beretta, you did the right thing. Have you handled a Microtech and Emersons? If you did, and chose Emerson, you ... uh ... aw, nevermind.

(I own a Mach-I that is decent...had to sell the Specwar, it had problems).

I'll take a 1911 and a Microtech anyday.
Others prefer a 9mm DA/SA and an Emerson.

To quote the philosopher Punch, of Punch & Judy fame, "Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Knife content: hey, how about that Emerson QA/QC!
 
"I'm glad you can rip off 4 or 5 well placed shots with your 9 mm. It will take that many to stop the bad guy. You only need ONE well placed shot with a 45!!!! Yes the 9mm is a very good round for the recoil sensitive shooter!!!! "

Not to get into the .45 ACP vs. 9mm debate, but check your facts. Handgun Stopping Power and Street stoppers are two good places to start.

el cid:
I guess my point is the Emersons come designed for you to take apart and adjust it how YOU want it. Don't you get it?

chip:
"All the new Beretta 92's are 10 rounders!!! Who in the world wants a 10 round double stacker??? What in the world do you pay for after market large capacity mags for it??? If I had a choice between 8 rounds of 45 or 10 rounds of 9mm???? Hard choice"

Yes, the 1994 Crime Bill handicapped the Berettas. So does IDPA. That's usually how the world reacts to the best. They can't beat 'em, so they handicap 'em. :p
 
Originally posted by Brigadier
Not to get into the .45 ACP vs. 9mm debate, but check your facts. Handgun Stopping Power and Street stoppers are two good places to start.

I wish it were all in the Marshall & Sanow numbers. Careful consideration of their work lead me to believe it's not that simple. There is no free lunch when you shoot 115 vs. 230 grains, and .357 diameter vs. .45 diameter. And the cross sectional area (expanded or not) between the two is even more dramatic as the area goes by square of diameter.

If you must shoot a 9mm, shoot the .357 sig, as at least you get the reliability of the bottlenosed cartridge and the further velocity of the .357 magnum.

Ok. I'm done on this non-Emerson topic. :barf:
 
I'm beginning to wonder if there's any point in keeping this thread open. The topic has strayed from a factual discussion of how many quality control problems Emerson knives have to opinions about whether anyone should care, and now we seem to be well on the way to a tour through all six or eight of the worst rec.guns groaners -- not very welcome even on rec.guns....

I hate to lock threads, though. How about if anybody who wants to talk guns moves to Practical Tactical at this website (don't expect much of a welcome if you only want another iteration of the groaners, though) and anybody who wants to discuss whether quality control makes any difference or not moves to the general Blade forum (or possibly Whine & Cheese) and if anybody still has anything to say about Emerson quality problems (or the absence thereof) can continue to discuss that in this thread?

Topic drift happens -- I don't mean to give anybody a hard time over it -- but there are times when somebody has to call a halt ... and that's what they pay me the big buck$ for. :)
 
Originally posted by Brigadier
You know what? I really am getting very very tired of Emerson bashing.
The reason I think EKI is crapped on all the time, is that THEY ARE THE #1 HARD USE KNIVES IN THE WORLD, and everyone else is jealous. Emerson knives ARE used by the SEALS, in fact a month or so ago, SEAL Team 6 orderd a bunch of waved CQC7B's. Now, if I'm a SEAL, and I spend MY OWN $$ on a knife, it better work when the feces hits the rotating oscillator.



You posted this 19 July 2001.

Just so you know, Seal Team Six has long been dismantled. CT has been spread throughout 1, 3, 5, 2, 4, and8 .
 
Nimrod...

That is skirting subject matter that does not bear discussion on an open forum. You didn't say anything compromising, but it has the potential to elicit undesired attention.

Let's steer back to the discussion of Emerson Knives or lock up this particular discussion.
 
Kamp:

Undesired attention? Nothing that one of Virginia's more famous (infamous?) residents hasn't said for years, to millions. All open source data.

Just questioning the quality and freshness of the ST-6 "purchase" intel.

I tried to email you, but you are blocked through the Forums. Shoot me an email.

Maintaining Course and Speed, UNODIR.
 
Nimrod,

One of the beautiful things about this medium is the ability to maintain a measure of relative anonymity. It is something I enjoy and value. So when I <u>respectfully</u> decline to give out my eMail address, it is nothing personal nor is any affront intended. But I appreciate the extended hand and I shake it (so to speak). No wisecracks about me "shaking it" please.:D

My concern is simply that the discussion of CT capabilities and responsibilities within the community should stay out of an open forum. There <i>are</i> SPECWAR forums out there, but they are moderated by operators. As such I would venture to say that they keep a much tighter control over sensitive or compromising information getting around. Let's just be discreet out of respect for those who go in harm's way.

David
 
Brigadier,
You've redeemd yourself with that post.:)

EKI has had a following with the Teams. Sharkman of the Delta had a CQC-6 and made repeated reference to it in his best books. The Customs certainly are nice knives.
 
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