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Enforced ZT MAP, will you give Benchmade a second look?

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by EDCanAdamas, Sep 20, 2014.

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  1. EDCanAdamas

    EDCanAdamas

    520
    Sep 8, 2013
    Okay, I have two seperate points in this thread about Benchmade and ZT:

    1. When Benchmade did that MAP thing back in November some of us got a little mad at them stopped purchasing new Benchmades. In the mean time they introduced some cool new designs, I personnally am looking into the Axis Stryker Series. Now ZT has done the same thing as BM did by actually enforcing their MAP policy. End Result, ZT prices not are higher than BM prices. So my point is, if all the companies are going to make us pay more (like it or not) is BM worth a second look to you? It is to me now, although I still think ZT's are more closely worth what they are charging.

    2. This is more of a side comment; In my speculation BM was not hurt by our communities little bit of anger/ any boycotts of new BM's. BM has a different style of company than ZT does, and a different consumer base. Non-knife people know about BM, and they are issued in the military. ZT does not have that kind of consumer base (how many non knife people know what a Zero Tolerance is?), so I believe they (ZT) could suffer more from having "raised" prices on their product because their customers are more of a niche group than Benchmade's are.

    Note: I am aware of the other MAP thread. This thread is specific to ZT and Benchmade, the possible impact on those two companies, and your feelings on "going back to Benchmade". Please don't make this thread into a full economics discussion about MAP, the other thread is doing that alreadly. Thanks.
     
  2. stabman

    stabman Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 17, 2007
    If I like a knife enough to pay the price needed to get it, and I have the cash, I'll buy it.
    If the knife isn't good enough for the price or I'm too broke, then I won't.

    Simple as that.
     
  3. amg137

    amg137

    615
    Sep 21, 2013
    Is this a new development with ZT? I still see knives being sold below MAP on several websites including KershawGuy.

    As long as they are only enforcing the advertised pricing and not the actual sale price (like BM is) I'm not concerned. Even if ZT knives start going for their MAP, I'm much more willing to pay those prices than Benchmade's. Most of Benchmade's $150-250 knives have the construction and materials of a knife in the ballpark of $100. Every ZT I've handled has had perfect centering and lockup, and I think they're worth every penny of the MAP (though perhaps not MSRP). Still, any price hike would definitely leave a bad taste in my mouth and I would certainly buy fewer ZTs. Nothing would ever get me to "go back to Benchmade" though.
     
  4. Jason B.

    Jason B. KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 13, 2007
    I just purchased a benchmade axis Stryker, I am happy they have MAP pricing. I got what I paid for and relieved I did not get gouged in price or have the price cut so low Its putting everyone out of business.

    IMO, everyone should have MAP pricing.
     
  5. EDCanAdamas

    EDCanAdamas

    520
    Sep 8, 2013
    There are a few holdouts, but they will fall in line soon. At least ZT's MAP is 20% below retail, because I am not done buying ZT's :D

    I should also mention that because KAI holds both ZT and Kershaw, that KAI as a corporation will not be hurt by any reduction in ZT sales. The ZT and Kershaw dynamic, with lower priced items being sold is also something Benchmade does not have. Case in point, if you want the Axis lock, than you must buy either a Benchmade or a pirated knock-off.
     
  6. squarebox86

    squarebox86

    184
    Feb 6, 2014
    Nope, I would still never consider a Benchmade until they decide to wake up and upgrade themselves to justify their prices. It isn't as bad for ZT as they somewhat able justify their prices by always upgrading and improving their products but it still sucks
    I always though of ZT was on par with Spyderco in terms of great value but after this "MAP" stunt, it's pretty clear.

    In terms of value:
    1. Spyderco
    2. Mora
    3. Zero Tolerance
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
  7. Havoc5J

    Havoc5J

    90
    Jan 4, 2014
    After the MAP changes ZT products are still a good value for the money being asked. I thought Benchmades were over priced before the MAP changes, and the price increase elevated them to an almost humorous level. No, Benchmade needs a substantial price drop before I give them a second look.
     
  8. cross1178

    cross1178

    318
    Dec 27, 2013
    I didn't realize ZT did this, but after looking at kershawguys site, I noticed the "add to cart for lower price" is gone now. The big river site still hasn't been informed of the changes yet though it seems. Glad I got my orders for my favs before the hike, but as someone else stated, if I like it enough, I'll buy it, or shop around until I find the right deal.
     
  9. cross1178

    cross1178

    318
    Dec 27, 2013
    Oops dbl post
     
  10. Tripton

    Tripton Gold Member Gold Member

    May 26, 2008
    I actually had a knife in the cart at kershawguy.Com ready to go, and the price has indeed jumped (everywhere). Looks like I will be holding off.
     
  11. Quiet

    Quiet "That guy" Platinum Member

    Oct 11, 2013
    I will say that I think ZT uses better materials across the entirety of their line: carbon fiber, M390, Elmax, titanium, and so on.

    True, Benchmade also uses those things, but not on their lower tiers. So, for me, ZT is worth what they ask, whereas Benchmades just aren't. I won't pay $100+ for plastic handles. Just not for me. Your mileage may vary.
     
  12. RamZar

    RamZar Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 3, 2013
    Benchmade still needs to up their game in the QC department to justify their MAP enforced pricing. At least on the back end they have great warranty/CS like ZT.

    People visiting these forums comprise a very small percentage of knife buyers.

    ZT with MAP enforcement will hurt their sales but when comparing models with Benchmade they still offer more value.

    For example, look at Benchmade 940 at $182.75 (aluminum handle, S30V) and ZT 0801 at $192.00 (titanium frame lock/handles, Elmax, KVT flipper).

    I could've seen Spyderco benefitting from all this but their recent models from Japan and Taiwan are quite pricey even at 40% off MSRP.

    I got most of the ZTs I ever wanted and there are only two production models that I was foolish enough not to preorder and paid full MAP: 0562CF and 0620CF. I did the same thing in November 2013 buying spare Benchmades. The only thing left for me to get are the true ZT Limited Editions like 0454 and 0392 (if I can even get one in the frenzy).

    It's going to be interesting.
     
  13. kershawguy

    kershawguy

    Jun 11, 2005
    Unless I missed something , all my ZT product should be at MAP
     
  14. salmonkiller

    salmonkiller

    Dec 9, 2006
    I have the ZT's that I want already also, but there will be new models released in the future with better materials and technology that is not currently being used.I am sure KAI would like to be like Apple with long lines at retailers and online sales that are sold out in minutes whenever a new model/version is released.This Trekkie style phenomenon seems to be well under way for new KAI offerings at least in my eyes.As long as sales numbers are strong and Marketing is working, then I would expect them to try to push prices toward MSRP over a period of time.My best guess is that was the plan from the beginning when KAI gave birth to the ZT line.The price increases may be attributed to the ZT lines success so far, or as a nod of confidence that future sales will continue meet or exceed expectations.This is my personal hypothesis and opinion.
     
  15. Accelerator

    Accelerator Gold Member Gold Member

    824
    Oct 16, 2010
    Here are my answers;

    1) I went from buying 10-15 new BM's a year to 0. I only buy them on the secondary market now. I just don't feel like the value is there for the minimum pricing now.

    2) I haven't purchased a ZT since their sub-forum turned into a kindergarten. They, ZT/KAI, left a very bad taste in my mouth with their behavior both in the sub-forum and also their limited edition manufacturing and release policies. Now with the release of the 562CF, I was just getting ready to leave those things in the past and purchase this knife new. To say the 562CF speaks to me would be an understatement. But apparently, ZT is choosing to enforce minimum pricing so I guess I'll still be shopping on the secondary market for those as well.

    For the record, I am a small business owner in a brick and mortar (gun shop), and I get pissed every time a distributor or manufacturer steps in and tries to tell me how to do business. I like the freedom to charge whatever the hell I want for an item. Sometimes, when you're sitting on old stock and you just need to unload it, you drastically drop the price and take a loss just to recoup some of your initial investment. Money in the bank is always better than money sitting on the shelf, at least in this case. Occasionally, when a new product is released for the first time, you gamble and decide to stock said product. When it turns out to either be unpopular or overpriced and doesn't sell, you do what you've got to do and unload that item for whatever you can get. I can offer a few more scenarios, but I think you get the idea. I am the owner, and I run my company as I see fit. If I succeed or fail, that is completely up to me.
     
  16. RamZar

    RamZar Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 3, 2013
    There are still a few places selling ZTs below MAP since they have yet to update their databases. I'm sure by early next week they'll comply but right now you have an opportunity for a few days to buy at a discount.

    I will not be naming names.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2014
  17. amg137

    amg137

    615
    Sep 21, 2013
    My bad, I still had some items in my cart that showed up at the old prices.
     
  18. Scurvy092

    Scurvy092

    Jan 31, 2012
    There is a big difference in my mind.

    Benchmades were sold for quite a while at 25% ish below MAP online, in pretty much every place. When Benchmade changed their policy, all of their online prices jumped 25% overnight. I never paid MAP for any of the Benchmades I purchased.

    ZTs up until recently were ALL being sold for MAP when they were first released by everyone. It was only until after a few years could you start to find them on discount to keep interest and sales up on the product. It took quite a long time to find a ZT0560 for less than $260 on a regular basis. Only recently did people start discounting these knives as soon as they were released and not everyone did it.

    I think ZT is trying to head off the issues Benchmade had before they happened. I paid MAP for all of my ZTs and never had any qualms about it.

    When both being sold at MAP, ZTs are by far the better value than Benchmades.
     
  19. JungleJim65

    JungleJim65

    497
    Oct 25, 2013
    Wow ZT, just last week I purchased the 770 CF m390 for $185, the same store is now selling them for $220. A $35 increase on that particular knife, we're probably looking at a $45-$55 increase on the 562 CF in some cases. I will pick up the 562 since I pre-ordered it in January, but that will probably be the last one I purchase retail.
     
  20. Scurvy092

    Scurvy092

    Jan 31, 2012
    It's not an increase. Everyone knew the 0562CF was going to be $240 when it came out because they was MAP. It was only recently messed up by a few people choosing to sell it much cheaper. Think of it more as a pleasant surprise that some got a steep discount since the price was known and everyone who preordered were presumably prepared to pay $240.
     
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