Enforced ZT MAP, will you give Benchmade a second look?

[jazub]

There are great knife dealers out there and I certainly have some I prefer and repeat business with. But lets be frank: dealers are middlemen. Why should the company producing the product not have a say in the pricing of their own goods and the manner in which their goods are perceived? If a dealer doesn't want to carry a line anymore, let him stop. Another middleman will assuredly step in and reap the profits of peddling those goods. Nobody should be hurt this way.

It seems that in the purchasing of goods, it would be easy to throw our arms in the air and wail and thrash ourselves in the knowledge that everything we purchase is produced with the aim of maintaining industry and profit. I see that some of you consider yourselves hardcore capitalists. Let the market play out and observe maturly. Scratching at your eyes and hollering for the government to come in with some decree to save you from the extra 20 or 30 bucks you have to pay for a high quality pocket knife to add to your collection is not the behavior of adults. If those of you who are most upset are correct, then these fine knife companies will go out of business, all of their employees will live in the streets, and you can withhold a coin from their begging cups, arms folded, and proclaim "I told you so" in utter victory.

 

[skyhorse]

While KW is now selling the ZT 0561 for $259.95, before MAP enforcement I bought mine from BHQ about 18 months ago for $220 when they had a sale on it! No more sales...

Uh,oh . You got a great deal,I didn't feel my ZT 0561 was overpriced at $260. I'm still impressed with it. Hoping to score the 0392.

 

[Rival1314]

Price fixing is free market? And you're disrespecting others for not knowing basic economics, lol. I thought you were leaving the forums because the mods allow people to post negative (but civil) opinions about KAI specifically anyways?


I do have a solution. Check your state laws. Maryland actually passed a law that allows dealers to sue the piss out of manufacturers who cut ties to dealers in that state for selling below MAP. So if KAI cut off a Maryland dealer for selling below MAP, they would be held liable for profit loss. Supposedly a few other states have passed similar laws, but Maryland was the first to pop up in my google search.

ETA: These states consider MAP to fall under antitrust guidelines, leaving the manufacturer legally liable for taking action against a dealer who gets cut off for selling below MAP. *New York, Illinois, Michigan, Maryland, and California

Im simply dumbfounded at the density of your operating level....seriously...i dont think you are actually reading my posts, or understanding their perspectives. And your last few posts are pretty aggressive and borderline trolling.

By free market i mean allowing a manufacturer to set guidelines for their products to be marketed and sold, i dont see this as price fixing. Neither do the thousands of other companies that have similar policies. Besides, nobody is making anyone sign up for dealer status. And your facts are backwards. If there is a contract between a dealer and a manufacturer, the dealer would be in breach for selling below an agreed upon price point and the manufacturer would likely have right to terminate the contract depending on the terms. The dealer wont be suing anyone. I have been in vendor management for over a decade, so im familiar with the process, and the litigation in MD to which you are referring out of context. The internet may give you facts but they dont help you understand them, and they sure as hell dont make you a lawyer.

Now to the personal dig, i never said i was leaving the forum, i said i have backed off my support ... meaning downgraded my membership status. However even in my diminished support of the site, i still retain a paying membership unlike you...any other pointless drivel you wanna troll up?

If you want to have a conversation great, but thats not what is happening in this thread. Now im sure there is something that two knife nuts like ourselves could agree on regarding another topic, but this is not the one...it seems like you're trying to make it personal... Certianly not worth it over trivial opinions that will make no impact whatsoever on the decisions that have already been made and put into effect.

 

[grkgod454]

In b4 thread lock!

 

[o4tg]

Im simply dumbfounded at the density of your operating level....seriously...i dont think you are actually reading my posts, or understanding their perspectives. And your last few posts are pretty aggressive and borderline trolling.

By free market i mean allowing a manufacturer to set guidelines for their products to be marketed and sold, i dont see this as price fixing. Neither do the thousands of other companies that have similar policies. Besides, nobody is making anyone sign up for dealer status. And your facts are backwards. If there is a contract between a dealer and a manufacturer, the dealer would be in breach for selling below an agreed upon price point and the manufacturer would likely have right to terminate the contract depending on the terms. The dealer wont be suing anyone. I have been in vendor management for over a decade, so im familiar with the process, and the litigation in MD to which you are referring out of context. The internet may give you facts but they dont help you understand them, and they sure as hell dont make you a lawyer.

Now to the personal dig, i never said i was leaving the forum, i said i have backed off my support ... meaning downgraded my membership status. However even in my diminished support of the site, i still retain a paying membership unlike you...any other pointless drivel you wanna troll up?

If you want to have a conversation great, but thats not what is happening in this thread. Now im sure there is something that two knife nuts like ourselves could agree on regarding another topic, but this one is done for me...thats twice people have tried to make it personal in this thread alone. Certianly not worth it over trivial opinions that will make no impact whatsoever on the decisions that have already been made and put into effect.

You pretty much made the first personal attacks in the thread with your Haterade troll post. Not me. Not anyone else. You, because you take it personal when someone voices an opinion about Kershaw you don't like, even when KAI themselves are likely not offended.

MAP/price fixing is illegal in certain states. Yes, I found that out by reading state government websites and reading documented case law. All of the sudden reading official court documents and state law is a bad thing if it's done on the internet? You're the second one who has said it can't be right because it comes from the internet. I challenge you to go break another state's laws while in their jurisdiction and build a defense around "well I didn't believe the .gov site information because it was on the internet".

Or you could just look at it yourself. When Apple got sued and settled out of court for enforcing MAP's in New York it even made national news.

 

[RedLynx]

They did!
They actually did.
I clearly remember some people who received free knives and still complained about them.

It was the most astounding example of being spoiled entitled brats I ever witnessed other than from 3 year olds.

I asked for a free knife on here, as kind of a joke, and got 2 actual, free knives sent to me in the mail. No joke. Happy camper here.

 

[hardheart]

Being in breach of contract only matters if the contract was legal in the first place, which would be o4tg's point, I'd warrant.

 

[EDCanAdamas]

Im simply dumbfounded at the density of your operating level....seriously...i dont think you are actually reading my posts, or understanding their perspectives. And your last few posts are pretty aggressive and borderline trolling.

...any other pointless drivel you wanna troll up?

If you want to have a conversation great, but thats not what is happening in this thread. Now im sure there is something that two knife nuts like ourselves could agree on regarding another topic, but this is not the one...it seems like you're trying to make it personal... Certianly not worth it over trivial opinions that will make no impact whatsoever on the decisions that have already been made and put into effect.

Rival, your feeble attempt to "frame the narrative" by telling us all what we are doing has failed. You can't seem to back up your arguments with facts, so you go and attack our "loyalty to the brand", post juvenile memes, and call members names. You sir are the one who seems to be reacting rather emotionally, a quite telling response of a true brand partisan who cannot stand criticism.

In my response to you, I read your posts and disagreed with most of your logic. I never said manufacturers should not be able to set their own prices, nor have I said that contracts binding manufacturer and distributor are wrong. However, when a company loosens its policy, effectively allowing it to lapse, than it is they who are at fault when people get upset. Either enforce pricing schemes or not, but don't tell online retailers who have already paid for their items how to sell them when you (the company) looked the other way when they were clearly selling below MAP. This is also why admitted Benchmade "Fanboys" like myself did leave Benchmade for a while after last November. You simply don't treat your best customers and dealers like that.

It also does not take an expert in economics to predict that certain model sales will fall due to pricing schemes that disallow any opportunity for discounting below a certain percentage. Rival, you said there will be "coupons" and other similar devices to entice customers on a non-regular basis. Don't hold you breath for such "coupons" or opportunities to haggle online to occur. I highly doubt that you are considering reality, as no distributor is going to risk being in breach of those so perfectly binding contracts KAI or BM have set up.

Lastly, to grind the bones of this dead horse to dust, I'll state that RPM/MAP goes against all the sound laws of economics. RPM/MAP makes dealer level sales choices irrelevant, which effectively makes dealers obsolete. Whats the point of choosing a dealer if they are all the same. KAI may as well sell ZT's factory direct. Less dealers undercutting each other to sell product means that less product is sold in volume. If less product is sold in volume, the products that are produced go up in price to offset the loss in mass revenue (Economies of scale, its why Ford was able to sell so many cars in the early 1900's versus the guys making one fancy car each day for the super rich). The loss in mass revenue will either cause ZT to "fold" or they will become unaffordable to their primary target audience; which is soldiers and first responders.

So its late and I grow tired to trying to explain what seems rather clear. It seems like either you get what the free market is about or you don't. I'll leave this wall of text for you guys to digest and wish everyone a good morning. :yawn:

 

[Karda]

Some of you really need to take a step back and take stock in how you've posted here.
Discussing the topic in a civil and adult manner fosters understanding, even if neither party agrees.
Making trolling posts and discussing other posters creates animosity and dissent, destroying any civility and discussion.

In lieu of handing out infractions, this thread is now closed..... bear this in mind in your future postings.