Enforced ZT MAP, will you give Benchmade a second look?

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MAP means Minimum ADVERTISED Price. It has nothing to do with how much they can sell something for. I get deals on Benchmade and ZT (I am a big fan of both) by calling or emailing dealers. A lot of times, it literally pays to go with the little guy because it's one point of contact you can build a relationship with. That's also how I get stuff as soon as it comes out, without getting gouged for it on eBay.
 
Call it what you want. It's a form of price collusion, directed by the manufacturer, and it should be illegal.

I was going to buy a 0562CF, but will not do it at MAP. I may have to try knifehoarder's suggestion.
 
JarrodS said:
Call it what you want. It's a form of price collusion, directed by the manufacturer, and it should be illegal.
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I agree - though the Supreme Court has pretty much weakened the ability of dealers to fight it in the Leegin decision, though the Dr. Miles Medical precedent was already losing ground long before 2007. Resale Price Maintenance is no longer per se illegal, but by rule of reason - which places the burden of proof on the plaintiff.
 
JarrodS said:
Call it what you want. It's a form of price collusion, directed by the manufacturer, and it should be illegal.

I was going to buy a 0562CF, but will not do it at MAP. I may have to try knifehoarder's suggestion.
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It should be illegal because you're not able to buy the knives you want at the prices you're willing to pay?

Did I misunderstand you? I apologize if I did.
 
knifehoarder said:
MAP means Minimum ADVERTISED Price. It has nothing to do with how much they can sell something for. I get deals on Benchmade and ZT (I am a big fan of both) by calling or emailing dealers. A lot of times, it literally pays to go with the little guy because it's one point of contact you can build a relationship with. That's also how I get stuff as soon as it comes out, without getting gouged for it on eBay.
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See this is where I get conflicting info, the dealers I called said it wasn't just MAP they weren't allowed to give discounts period. I was going to buy 3 knives if they budged on the MAP price but they turned the sale down because it could get them pulled as a dealer. Maybe they were blowing smoke but who knows. If they weren't then it's not MAP it's RPM (minimum resale price maintenance). Guess I need to locate a dealer willing to bend the rules :rolleyes:
 
Interesting thread. It reminds me of a company that was ahead of the competition regarding innovative designs, premium materials and outstanding performance. If my memory serves me right that put them in a position for introducing MAP pricing and enforcing it. People whined but bit the bullet because the stuff they sold couldn't be matched by the competition.

Then, one day... A breakthrough in tech came and the rest of the history is still to be written but I am guessing that the only thing keeping that company alive today is a lucrative government contract.

The name of that company?

Surefire.

Flashaholics from 1998 and forward Will probably remember when the LED technology came and Surefire was too slow to adjust.

They are a bit like ZT, showing and announcing stuff that is never made and pricing their products like it is pre 2008.

We will see if Benchmade will become Cold Steel of the early 2000 with affordable "value" folders and near zero innovation in a few years from now...

And ZT disappearing as a short KAI cutlery project testing the waters in the "life-style brand" segment.

Then again, I could be wrong.
 
The SureFire analogy is an apt one. What's telling is that many of the high-tech flashlights are made in China by mostly Chinese companies. It won't be long before we see a lot more high-quality and innovative knives from Chinese companies. Consumers win again just like with the dizzying array of flashlights which just 6-7 years ago did not exist.
 
We can call all these silly price things whatever we want but at the end of the day it all comes down to the end consumer price vs the quality of product received and if that ratio is worth it to the purchaser. For me many ZT's designs, fit/finish, and quality control are worth th 20% off msrp while what benchmade mostly offers at 15% off msrp simple isn't worth the price.

And to those who think this stuff should be illegal, seriously? It may be dumb. It may be bad buisness. It may alienate a great customer base. But last I checked this was still America and a company should be allowed to dictate the price it wants for it's products.
 
Personally I don't feel these new policies are MAP, with a MAP policy dealers should be able to sell for any price, just not advertise prices lower than MAP. That's not what we're hearing about BM and ZT's new policies because dealers are not able to sell below a certain price.

At the end of the day the consumer determines the success of these policies, if the knives still sell, and the dealers keep buying from the manufacturer, the policy is not a failure for the company. Unfortunately (for us consumers) over the past couple years knife buyers as a whole have shown they are happily willing to pay significantly more for popular knife designs than the company asks, and prices are probably going to keep going up.

There are still good values though, but QC seems to have slipped at several of the big companies as of late, ZT included, perhaps trying to cut costs too much to offer lower priced products. However, my guess is 95+% of the people buying their knives are not as picky as we are. They don't notice pivot play, handle scales not covering the liner, rough opening, weak detents etc. etc. We've also seen them skimp on materials and finishes where most customers won't notice, for example steel instead of Ti liner on the 0562CF (which certainly negates any weight savings from the CF scale) or the steel handle on the 0566, and the Ti side having no scalloping/texture like the 0560 series for grip/aesthetics. The same could be said for the steel liners on the 940-1.

What concerns me even more is are companies going to start skimping on the heat treat for some of these super steels to keep the costs of manufacturing down. M390 is great, but not so great at RC 58. We've already seen some companies higher steels be done at a soft RC for example the Elmax mule that ran around RC 58, and the S90V Manix 2 at RC 59. I think that is frequently overlooked, people love the higher end steels but don't consider that depending on the RC they might be no better than a lesser steel at a higher RC.

It's a sliding scale, there are still great knife deals out there from many companies.

Manix 2 G10 - $80
Manix 2 XL S90V and CF $250
PM2 - $120
BM 940-1 S90V and CF $230

I'd put the 0562CF and 0620CF in that list as well, even at $240, they were just a better deal at around $200 some dealers were offering.
 
RamZar said:
The SureFire analogy is an apt one. What's telling is that many of the high-tech flashlights are made in China by mostly Chinese companies. It won't be long before we see a lot more high-quality and innovative knives from Chinese companies. Consumers win again just like with the dizzying array of flashlights which just 6-7 years ago did not exist.
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Hopefully some new American companies will be created as well. I don't have anything against Chinese made knives, but I do not feel right spending more than $50 on one. You guys must really be giving up on things if China is going to be the new savior of knife manufacturing.
 
EDCanAdamas said:
Hopefully some new American companies will be created as well. I don't have anything against Chinese made knives, but I do not feel right spending more than $50 on one. You guys must really be giving up on things if China is going to be the new savior of knife manufacturing.
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Do your self a favor and check out the China made Kizer Knives . I never heard of them until I saw a some one post that Kizer made better knives than Kershaw and Better QC than Benchmade . I must say there knives look sweet and the material are top notch . S35V steel with G10 and titanium frame lock starting price models $85 . I never thought of China made knives were going to appeal to me because when I think of China made knives I Think of Kershaw knives and for the most part I hate how thick , heavy and clunky they are . That said I agree with RamZar . Consumer wins but American manufacture losses .
 
I always thought that MAP pricing was a false high Mfgrs put on their knives to make their dealers look good. Can you imagine if car dealers took this hard line?

Simple online shopping could suffer. I'm going back to the old way of personal contact before I buy a knife. Then I might have a chance to talk the price down or buy something else in their catalog at a reduced price in order to average out the sale. A sympathetic dealer can offer free shipping or promo codes for their entire line. Buying anything at MAP or MSRP gives me a rash.
 
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ToddM said:
At the end of the day the consumer determines the success of these policies . . .
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We have a winner! :) Either we cave or we fight. And we vote with our dollars. What's your vote going to be?

As for me, I've got enough knives to last several lifetimes. I don't "need" to buy any more, especially not from companies whose pricing policies I object to. If I want a knife produced by one of these companies badly enough, I'll buy it off the secondary market as others plan to do. Or I'll switch entirely to customs (oh, poor me! ;) ). One way or the other, Benchmade and ZT have seen the last of my dollars.
 
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bld522 said:
We have a winner! :) Either we cave or we fight. And we vote with our dollars. What's your vote going to be?

As for me, I've got enough knives to last several lifetimes. I don't "need" to buy any more, especially not from companies whose pricing policies I object to. If I want a knife produced by one of these companies badly enough, I'll buy it off the secondary market as others plan to do. Or I'll switch entirely to customs (oh, poor me! ;) ). One way or the other, Benchmade and ZT have seen the last of my dollars.
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And since ZT doesn't really fit into your general knife buying pattern of buying ONLY sub 4oz folders, I doubt they will notice.
 
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