Enforced ZT MAP, will you give Benchmade a second look?

[Apec]

Just an unrelated note - the benefits of RPM are not certain, and keep in mind that the SCOTUS justices who ruled in favor of RPM in Leegin are not expert economists. This wouldn't be the first time the SCOTUS effed up, and not the last.

There have been cases where RPM has been proven to be harmful. For instance, the medical supply industry's use of RPM is one of the reasons many of you are seeing grossly inflated hospital bills/therapy/medications/etc. Fortunately knives are not a necessity compared to medical care.

However, RPM is just a lazy solution to even the playing field for dealers. If there are dealers that they're worried about getting priced out of the market, they could offer those dealers promotions/etc to help boost their sales/operations.

 

[hardheart]

Of course RPM has proven to be harmful. The mention of Sony is rather salient. The corporation has gone from being a marquee brand considered of the highest quality, now to one who cannot generate operating profits on their physical goods. The internet has better informed the consumer, price is no longer considered as reliable a way to transmit information on quality or pedigree. Without insurance sales, they would already be gone. They have split off their television manufacturing, stopped producing computers, and have suffered huge losses in entertainment. They revised their projected losses for the fiscal year up from $250 million to $2.1 billion. Apple, who commanded a 100% margin on the Macintosh in the 80's had to be rescued by Microsoft in 1997 with a paltry $150 million injection so MS could protect itself from government intervention. They have lost market share globally in the mobile market as cheaper and/or more advanced competitors have encroached. Most relevant is the way Chinese smartphones are rapidly growing, and Apple cannot capture the remaining growth markets with their premium pricing. China is coming up fast for knives as well, but luckily for Kai they already manufacture out of mainland China with the factory they own.

Look at how Spyderco, BM, Reate, and Kizer have come up in this thread. The market has always been competitive. It takes leaders in promotion and sales to push the product, and they will go to the brands that allow them to differ themselves and attract the buyers. There has been no logical or cogent argument for MAP, only fanboy drivel. Follow MAP because reasons, rah rah my favorite brand, go team go! Beyond the classical effects of shifting down along the demand curve, introducing more substitutes, testing the elasticity of demand, and reducing consumer surplus, there are also the powerful behavioral effects due to the way this is presented, with framing problems, loss aversion, calling back the old anchors, and status quo changes that shock the sensibilities of the irrational side of consumptive behavior.

 

[KnottyEagle]

Admittedly, I haven't read much of this thread and skimmed through a few pages, but I have a thought I feel like saying.

This MAP policy that ZT is enforcing, has always been here. They just haven't enforced it really until now. What's there to be upset about? What people should be upset about are the dealers offering a lower price than what they're supposed to.

This "uproar" that people are having sounds exactly like my school administrators enforcing a dress code that's been with our school for 10 years now. Girls are getting upset because the dress code says this and that, but in reality, the dress code has always been here. It just hasn't been enforced until now. You shouldn't be mad at anything but your ignorance of the school handbook.

 

[Scurvy092]

I encourage you all to research and read about vertical price controls.

Kai is not the first manufacturer to do it. Sony, Apple, Viking, Taylor Made, and literally thousands more companies engage in some level of price management.

Taylor Made? How about the ENTIRE golf industry. Ever try to use a coupon from Goldsmith? All the major companies are excluded.

The entire sunglasses industry works this way as well.

No one here owns a pair of Oakley's, plays golf with any other clubs besides Snake Eyes, owns a Sebenza, drives a Honda or a Subaru.

 

[RamZar]

As of today, KnifeWorks has finally removed the "Add to Cart for Special Price" and all they have now is MAP prices.

However, there are still others who are selling below MAP so I encourage you to shop around before they're gone.

Two issues mentioned:

1. Can a ZT dealer sell below MAP as long as they're not advertising anywhere below MAP? Basically, is the RPM in effect, that is, ZTs can only be sold at or above MAP pricing?
2. I agree that the older ZTs like 0100, 0200, 0300 series, 0560/0561 series and 0550 seem now to have an inflated MSRP/MAP.

 

[Scurvy092]

I agree that the older ZTs like 0100, 0200, 0300 series, 0560/0561 series and 0550 seem now to have an inflated MSRP/MAP.

But but but... the prices and value on ZT knives have only gone down hill...


To be fair, the 056x and 030x knives have extensive 3d machined titanium handles. Thomas stated in the Gear Geeks Live podcast that each 0560 lock side takes 4hrs to machine. That adds a lot to the cost.

The new 0562 is just chamfered which is why you can get carbon fiber and m390 on it and still be cheaper.

 

[RamZar]

To be fair, the 056x and 030x knives have extensive 3d machined titanium handles. Thomas stated in the Gear Geeks Live podcast that each 0560 lock side takes 4hrs to machine. That adds a lot to the cost.

Machining time is money and not easy on the bits either. Problem is that the newer ZTs like 0801, 0562, 0620, etc. just have more perceived value. I don't see 0550, 0560 series and 0301 selling that many anymore after MAP enforcement. Just the way I see it. ZT now has many folders with 3.5" blades all sometimes competing against each other while it hasn't produced a new 3.75"-4" folder in a long time.

Spyderco Chaparral Stepped Titanium has incredible 3D machining on both sides of the titanium scales. Absolutely stunning! Sal mentioned that they can only produce about 14 a day of them. MSRP is $565 and a normal street price for Spyderco at drop date is a discount of about 40%. Well, they just don't sell at around $350. Price is now down at 50% off MSRP and they're barely moving.

 

[cross1178]

While I still love ZT, it almost seems that it's pointless to shop around anymore to find a good deal as everyone will be on the same page. While I'm not completely writing them off, it still irritates me to see the same knives increase in price overnight dramatically.

 

[o4tg]

This thread has been sponsored by:

Free market capitalism not welcome, unless it serves our needs...
#'Murica
#wefailedeconomics
#wewantcheapknives

Price fixing is free market? And you're disrespecting others for not knowing basic economics, lol. I thought you were leaving the forums because the mods allow people to post negative (but civil) opinions about KAI specifically anyways?


I do have a solution. Check your state laws. Maryland actually passed a law that allows dealers to sue the piss out of manufacturers who cut ties to dealers in that state for selling below MAP. So if KAI cut off a Maryland dealer for selling below MAP, they would be held liable for profit loss. Supposedly a few other states have passed similar laws, but Maryland was the first to pop up in my google search.

ETA: These states consider MAP to fall under antitrust guidelines, leaving the manufacturer legally liable for taking action against a dealer who gets cut off for selling below MAP. *New York, Illinois, Michigan, Maryland, and California

 

[mr_anderson]

I sold off most of my KAI collection recently, and this has prompted me to sell the rest. If dealers set MAP's it's illegal. If manufacturers do it is legal. To me, if KAI wants to control the food on their dealer's tables, they should just raise the cost of their knives. Most of the best ZT deals weren't from large chains anyways. They were from the small shops who now won't be able to compete. Large outfits like Blade HQ and Cabelas are the ones who benefit from price fixing, not the small guys who would for less profit. Prime example (even though he won't admit it) is KershawGuy. Do you really think blem sales will remain constant when they're priced within 10% of unblemmed? Now that he can't sell non blems as cheap, people are going to flock to auction sites.

I used to be a huge KAI fan. In fact, I used to be one of the many people like those in this thread who would defend them like any criticism offended my own personal honor. Not no more. They can keep their small dealer screw over plan and overpriced 3CR knives. I'm sure a fanboi will be along to call me names for that, but at the end if the day I vote with my dollar and what products I choose to rely on. That won't be a KAI product anytime soon. I have a nasty Gerber taste in my mouth from all this, and I think KAI has gone too corporate. I wish them the best, but I'm no longer a fan. Who ever the bean counters are have put a black eye on the company's prestige for the sake of money, and money alone. Yes, making money is the goal, but the things that drew me to KAI originally have now shriveled up into something I don't even recognize as my favorite brand.

Dear god, would you man up and quit whining like a little bitch. You sound like you should be on "The View". Bunch of yappy little dogs that bark and bark and bark.............. This is the Exact reason KAI has no presence on BF. It's the damn 99%ers. All KAI did was give, whether in new models coming out, release dates, sneak peeks and when something didn't go as planned, people were out for blood and when KAI tries to make it more even for limited editions, people complained. It doesn't matter what they do, nothing will make you inbred morons happy. I think If KAI gave the knives away for free, you people would find something to complain about. Carry on with your worthless drivel.

 

[stabman]

I think If KAI gave the knives away for free, you people would find something to complain about.

They did!
They actually did.
I clearly remember some people who received free knives and still complained about them.

It was the most astounding example of being spoiled entitled brats I ever witnessed other than from 3 year olds.

 

[mr_anderson]

I rest my case.

 

[o4tg]

Dear god, would you man up and quit whining like a little bitch. You sound like you should be on "The View". Bunch of yappy little dogs that bark and bark and bark.............. This is the Exact reason KAI has no presence on BF. It's the damn 99%ers. All KAI did was give, whether in new models coming out, release dates, sneak peeks and when something didn't go as planned, people were out for blood and when KAI tries to make it more even for limited editions, people complained. It doesn't matter what they do, nothing will make you inbred morons happy. I think If KAI gave the knives away for free, you people would find something to complain about. Carry on with your worthless drivel.

Need a tissue tough guy? Up until not too long ago, minimum advertised pricing was considered illegal and a violation of capitalism. And why it hurts your feelings so bad is even more surprising then mine, nor anyone else's reaction. Do you have a financial stake in KAI? Then why the hell are you crying over it?

 

[mr_anderson]

I'm not the one bitching over it, am I? Illegal? Bullshit. I work in Sound industry, some companies do not let dealers post prices, been like that for YEARS, as long as I have been doing it(almost 20 years). It's not a new concept. You looked it up on the interwebs huh? Must be true then. Did you know elvis is alive living on an alien spaceship in Area 52 (52 is more secret). I looked it up, must be true.

 

[skyhorse]

Knifeworks is currently selling the ZT 0561 for a nickle less than I paid for mine a long time ago. I don't see an issue. The BM knives I bought last year are about 30% higher in price now.

 

[o4tg]

Dear god, would you man up and quit whining like a little bitch. You sound like you should be on "The View". Bunch of yappy little dogs that bark and bark and bark.............. This is the Exact reason KAI has no presence on BF. It's the damn 99%ers. All KAI did was give, whether in new models coming out, release dates, sneak peeks and when something didn't go as planned, people were out for blood and when KAI tries to make it more even for limited editions, people complained. It doesn't matter what they do, nothing will make you inbred morons happy. I think If KAI gave the knives away for free, you people would find something to complain about. Carry on with your worthless drivel.

I'm not the one bitching over it, am I? Illegal? Bullshit. I work in Sound industry, some companies do not let dealers post prices, been like that for YEARS, as long as I have been doing it(almost 20 years). It's not a new concept. You looked it up on the interwebs huh? Must be true then. Did you know elvis is alive living on an alien spaceship in Area 52 (52 is more secret). I looked it up, must be true.

You're the one offended by the opinion of others on the internet, cussing and calling names. If you had any common sense, you would realize that supreme court documents are in fact on the "interwebs", despite your just learned to use a computer senile ranting.

 

[RamZar]

Knifeworks is currently selling the ZT 0561 for a nickle less than I paid for mine a long time ago. I don't see an issue. The BM knives I bought last year are about 30% higher in price now.

While KW is now selling the ZT 0561 for $259.95, before MAP enforcement I bought mine from BHQ about 18 months ago for $220 when they had a sale on it! No more sales...

 

[skyhorse]

While KW is now selling the ZT 0561 for $259.95, before MAP enforcement I bought mine from BHQ about 18 months ago for $220 when they had a sale on it! No more sales...

Uh,oh . You got a great deal,I didn't feel my ZT 0561 was overpriced at $260. I'm still impressed with it. Hoping to score the 0392.

 

[Stays Sharp]

Gotta wonder what dealers think between the MAP enforcement and the move to sell limiteds in house. I know of at least one who jumped ship (Howes) simply due to one of these developments.

 

[whp]

Of course RPM has proven to be harmful. The mention of Sony is rather salient. The corporation has gone from being a marquee brand considered of the highest quality, now to one who cannot generate operating profits on their physical goods. The internet has better informed the consumer, price is no longer considered as reliable a way to transmit information on quality or pedigree. Without insurance sales, they would already be gone. They have split off their television manufacturing, stopped producing computers, and have suffered huge losses in entertainment. They revised their projected losses for the fiscal year up from $250 million to $2.1 billion. Apple, who commanded a 100% margin on the Macintosh in the 80's had to be rescued by Microsoft in 1997 with a paltry $150 million injection so MS could protect itself from government intervention. They have lost market share globally in the mobile market as cheaper and/or more advanced competitors have encroached. Most relevant is the way Chinese smartphones are rapidly growing, and Apple cannot capture the remaining growth markets with their premium pricing. China is coming up fast for knives as well, but luckily for Kai they already manufacture out of mainland China with the factory they own.

Look at how Spyderco, BM, Reate, and Kizer have come up in this thread. The market has always been competitive. It takes leaders in promotion and sales to push the product, and they will go to the brands that allow them to differ themselves and attract the buyers. There has been no logical or cogent argument for MAP, only fanboy drivel. Follow MAP because reasons, rah rah my favorite brand, go team go! Beyond the classical effects of shifting down along the demand curve, introducing more substitutes, testing the elasticity of demand, and reducing consumer surplus, there are also the powerful behavioral effects due to the way this is presented, with framing problems, loss aversion, calling back the old anchors, and status quo changes that shock the sensibilities of the irrational side of consumptive behavior.

Nice job. Thanks.