Enforced ZT MAP, will you give Benchmade a second look?

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craytab said:
My goodness! You mean to tell me that a manufacturer is determining the price they ask for their product?
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No, that is not it at all. Never was, and no one ever claimed it to be the case. The manufacturer is determining the price a retailer asks for the product. If Kai wants to control the retail price, then they can stop dealer sales and handle all retail transactions through their website and call center. They can store all finished goods, package all individual shipments, answer all calls and emails, process all sales and returns, count eaches for inventory and ensure accurate reporting on the site, and when they are willing to handle each knife as a separate order instead of part of a wholesale shipment, then they can set the price all they want. When other people buy the knives, take full ownership of them, and incur all of the costs associated with all of those retail activities, it might appear reasonable to expect that they can also set their own prices - but only to reasonable people.
 
Or the dealers can agree to the terms to be a dealer or not and not be a dealer . seems pretty straight forward to me
 
Yes, because the best move for Kai is to reduce it's retail presence with ZT. Genius move on their part, since it cannot generate them any more sales no matter what dealers choose to do, and apparently the only incremental change possible would be a loss. What could possibly be wrong with that.
 
hardheart said:
Yes, because the best move for Kai is to reduce it's retail presence with ZT. Genius move on their part, since it cannot generate them any more sales no matter what dealers choose to do, and apparently the only incremental change possible would be a loss. What could possibly be wrong with that.
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Way to talk out of both sides of your mouth.

'Enforcing MAP will reduce retail presence as dealers don't play along'

'Who cares is dealers go out of business or.stop selling ZT products because of a price war'
 
hardheart said:
No, that is not it at all. Never was, and no one ever claimed it to be the case. The manufacturer is determining the price a retailer asks for the product. If Kai wants to control the retail price, then they can stop dealer sales and handle all retail transactions through their website and call center. They can store all finished goods, package all individual shipments, answer all calls and emails, process all sales and returns, count eaches for inventory and ensure accurate reporting on the site, and when they are willing to handle each knife as a separate order instead of part of a wholesale shipment, then they can set the price all they want. When other people buy the knives, take full ownership of them, and incur all of the costs associated with all of those retail activities, it might appear reasonable to expect that they can also set their own prices - but only to reasonable people.
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Yeah, they could do all that or maybe it would be easier to do what they are doing. Not too difficult to understand. But I might just be an unreasonable person.

Dealers can sell ZTs at what ever price they want. They have that right. Also, KAI can refuse sales to dealers who don't agree to sell their product at an agreed upon price. They have that right. Don't like the program, sell something else. Don't like the price of something, buy something else.

I don't agree with these policies. I think it is stupid, especially the way BM has done it. That said, a company has every right to do business the way it sees fit, this nonsense included.
 
I believe at this point we are beating a dead horse. No one likes what's going on with ZT and Benchmade. But the only thing we can do about it is choosing to not buy their products. Time will tell whether their pricing strategy will work or not, but if the demand goes down enough, they'll be forced to lower prices. This is especially true for ZT, as they target the knife knuts versus the general populous like Benchmade does.
 
If you cant justify buying a ZT at 20% off MSRP (which is an awesome deal btw) than maybe you shouldn't be considering them in the first place.
There are many less expensive knives out there.
What most of this thread has transitioned into is a bunch of folks with self-entitles mindsets. Like somehow you deserve a premium quality knife at a price that fits into your budget, and if it doesn't, shame on the company for making it and setting its price-point.


I like getting a good deal just as much as the next guy, however, all things considered, are the current prices for ZT's at MAP or Retail that unreasonable?
 
If I have to wait 2 years to buy someone's user 0620 off the exchange for $135, so be it.

I've always bought only what I can afford.

Looks like I'll be sticking to that plan. No biggie.
 
This has nothing to do with entitlement. As an educated consumer I refuse to buy a knife brand when there are similar options available elsewhere for less money, or better options at the same cost.

Whatever my budget is for a knife, I want the best for that price.
If I'm in the market for a $160 folder, the 0200 isn't going to make the list.
$260-280, there are many better options besides the 0560 or 0300.

Its only a minor annoyance to me; I'm fine with spending my money elsewhere.

I say shame on ZT for preventing competitive dealers from moving product. If you want to talk entitlement, I'd say the non-competitive dealers are having the playing field unfairly leveled to the detriment of those who were doing well.
 
brandnewcolony said:
If you cant justify buying a ZT at 20% off MSRP (which is an awesome deal btw) than maybe you shouldn't be considering them in the first place.
There are many less expensive knives out there.
What most of this thread has transitioned into is a bunch of folks with self-entitles mindsets. Like somehow you deserve a premium quality knife at a price that fits into your budget, and if it doesn't, shame on the company for making it and setting its price-point.


I like getting a good deal just as much as the next guy, however, all things considered, are the current prices for ZT's at MAP or Retail that unreasonable?
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I don't think people are necessarily feeling entitled to better prices so much as they are feeling frustrated. Many of us were Benchmade Fans (Adamas is in my user name, you think I liked Benchmade?) and we felt rather betrayed by that company, so we "switched" brands to ZT or Spyderco. Now there is one less company that seems to understand that while we might not be the largest segment of the population buying their knives, we are/were the most loyal.

Addressing you second comment, I still think ZT's prices are reasonable for many of their knives. However, their older designs (200,300,350) will suffer as people shift to the newer ones, or acquire existing stock elsewhere.
 
This thread has been sponsored by:
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Free market capitalism not welcome, unless it serves our needs...
#'Murica
#wefailedeconomics
#wewantcheapknives
 
Rival1314 said:
This thread has been sponsored by:
haterade+six-pac.gif

Free market capitalism not welcome, unless it serves our needs...
#'Murica
#wefailedeconomics
#wewantcheapknives
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Let's try to remain adults in this discussion... unless you want to admit something about your point(s) ;)
 
o4tg said:
I sold off most of my KAI collection recently, and this has prompted me to sell the rest. If dealers set MAP's it's illegal. If manufacturers do it is legal. To me, if KAI wants to control the food on their dealer's tables, they should just raise the cost of their knives. Most of the best ZT deals weren't from large chains anyways. They were from the small shops who now won't be able to compete. Large outfits like Blade HQ and Cabelas are the ones who benefit from price fixing, not the small guys who would for less profit. Prime example (even though he won't admit it) is KershawGuy. Do you really think blem sales will remain constant when they're priced within 10% of unblemmed? Now that he can't sell non blems as cheap, people are going to flock to auction sites.

I used to be a huge KAI fan. In fact, I used to be one of the many people like those in this thread who would defend them like any criticism offended my own personal honor. Not no more. They can keep their small dealer screw over plan and overpriced 3CR knives. I'm sure a fanboi will be along to call me names for that, but at the end if the day I vote with my dollar and what products I choose to rely on. That won't be a KAI product anytime soon. I have a nasty Gerber taste in my mouth from all this, and I think KAI has gone too corporate. I wish them the best, but I'm no longer a fan. Who ever the bean counters are have put a black eye on the company's prestige for the sake of money, and money alone. Yes, making money is the goal, but the things that drew me to KAI originally have now shriveled up into something I don't even recognize as my favorite brand.
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Seems like your cup is always half empty.......
 
It doesn't seem to matter what KAI/ZT does. Some are on board no matter what and history repeats itself on these threads.The slow deterioration of the quality of posts due to passion.... Now someone will reply and say... "Non ZT threads get like that too".... To that I say nope, not even close. Criticize the brand especially on a touchy subject and it's bound to blow up.
 
poolhustler said:
Seems like your cup is always half empty.......
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Hehe, so you're suggesting that it's the individual and his faults and not the brand. That's an easy way to explain everything away.

Both sides have valid points. Those that are unhappy with the MAP enforcement have opinions as valid as anyone else. Me personally, I'm lukewarm to it. I'll still buy ZT's, if others won't and share it here... let them.
 
I would have the same opinion whether it was Boker, Medford. Spydeco or anyone else. Its their product and they can set whatever policy they want. Its up to the dealers to agree and continue selling that product or not.
 
EDCanAdamas said:
Let's try to remain adults in this discussion... unless you want to admit something about your point(s) ;)
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tried explaining basic economics, and the reasons why a company sets MAP to maintain product value...then i tried pointing out that MAP relates to everyday pricing, and does not prevent a dealer from having sales, coupons, or offering temporary discounts...read them, would do you some good.

Many of us were Benchmade Fans (Adamas is in my user name, you think I liked Benchmade?) and we felt rather betrayed by that company, so we "switched" brands to ZT or Spyderco.
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Your comment is even funnier because in the same sentence you call your self a brand loyalist then say you jumped ship because your brand started charging more for their products....so you are not a brand loyalist at all. Perhaps they needed to make that move to retain delaer contracts...or even so they can maintain a profitable business model. And BTW...Spyderco has MAP policies too, but dealers arent undercutting thier new models out of the gate (Southards are still way overpriced) you can obtain copies of their MSRP and MAP price sheets rather easily. Lets try coming up with an argument that makes sense..... you are upset that you cannot get a cheaper price on a cool knife, understandable but not justifiable with the logic you and many others are trying to apply.
 
I encourage you all to research and read about vertical price controls.

Kai is not the first manufacturer to do it. Sony, Apple, Viking, Taylor Made, and literally thousands more companies engage in some level of price management.

There are arguments both ways - it is not a cut and dried situation, as history will show you if you take the time to do a little research.

The pendulum has swung on this topic in terms of legislation several times within the past 100 years.

I believe the success of MAP is in equal enforcement; large mass retailers like Amazon must be forced to participate as well as the smaller retailers.

I understand that many knife collectors will be priced out of the market if they have to pay $30-60 more for a knife, but if that much money is that large of a budget issue those folks likely should not be in the $200-$500 knife market anyway. Cold hard fact.

I will continue to patronize the same dealers that I patronized before the current focus on MAP, and I will still be buying Kershaw/ZT knives. It really won't be a big deal for me, I just hope my favorite retailers are able to remain competitive.

The points seem to be -

On side a - people think that manufacturers should not be allowed to set minimum advertised pricing, or even minimum sale price. Some of those people go as far as to say they will no longer purchase the product.

On side b - Some people think that manufacturers should be allowed to set minimum advertised pricing, and that is completely legal today in the USA (and UK by the way). Some of those people say that the increased price for the products will not deter them from buying the product.

All the rest of it is just people trying to change other people's minds, and we all know that is just not going to happen.

I wish all of the folks and Kai the best, and all of their Dealers the best, and hope they all prosper.

Vote with your dollars.

I am going back to playing with my knives now.

best

mqqn
 
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