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EP evaluation thread for Knifenut1013
- Thread starter cbwx34
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You're telling me! I have a nifty little BM 940 Osborne that I reprofiled to approx. 30 degrees and have sharpened it with my Sharpmaker (diamond rods included) so many time in the past 6 months that it's getting a barely discernable recurve - because I can't get the beginning of the cutting edge on the rods due to the thumbstuds.
Ya know that the thumbstuds can be easily removed. Just unscrew.
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This brings me back to my original point. If he actually used one, he would know this is not an issue.
I'm still curious about this statement you made, as it is something I haven't seen. If this really were an issue, (and if you think about it, it would be a pretty big one, and not just for the EdgePro), this would have come up long ago. If you're basing it on just one blade, I'm sure you know there could be a multitude of reasons for what occurred. So, to clarify, how does a precise bevel contribute to increased wear and chipping?
cbw
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Stone wear is one of the small issues, if you want me to use one so bad send me one and I'll review it.
Its simple geometry, I've tested it many times with many steels and always get the same results. Draw the two shapes out on paper or just imagine the cross section.
out of all the sharpening knick-knacks I've owned over the years, I keep going back to free hand on some norton water stones, and the mousepad sandpaper trick for convexes. For things with odd shapes like serrations or recurves..... this is really gonna show my ethnicity...lol I wrap sandpaper around a chop-stick
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out of all the sharpening knick-knacks I've owned over the years, I keep going back to free hand on some norton water stones, and the mousepad sandpaper trick for convexes. For things with odd shapes like serrations or recurves..... this is really gonna show my ethnicity...lol I wrap sandpaper around a chop-stick
I like the Spyderco profiling set *(I think that is what they call it). It has 2 1" wide stones, one med brown, and fine white. They come in a leather pouch side by side for around $45 plus tax. The edges of the stone are rounded, one sharp, and one with more radius to handle serrations. I generally only own plain edge, but the chop stick thing is cool too.
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I don't care if you use an EP or not. I doubt at this point you would give it a fair evaluation. If I thought you would, I would take you up on the offer. But I think all you would do is find whatever faults you could, and post about them. I just think you should quit posting about something you know nothing about.
Your second answer is not an answer. Sorry, but I just won't accept the "take my word for it". And the 2nd part doesn't make sense. What exactly am I drawing and comparing it to? Do I draw a triangle with a ruler, then freehand one, and the difference will tell me why an edge wears and chips?
Seriously, I don't get it.cbw
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I ran some numbers on the subject (I tutor geometry so it was a fun practice problem). I urge you to do the same...the grind angle can change if medium thickness changes...the magnitude of the "issue" has everything to do with your expectations and standards.
To your point even a very careless user will not likely even recognize much issue...and will get good results. But if you cultivate ignorance by never understand the potential limitations of your sharpening method (regardless of what it is), you could be missing out on BETTER results. That is all I am saying.
The EP is a very nice system. There is no mystery why it has a big following...and it is deserved. But if you look objectively at ANY sharpening method, you should be able to find some limitations.
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Unit, you are correct. I've done the same analysis myself. I already stated it in a previous post. The actual change isn't even a degree. And like I also said, practically, it doesn't seem to have an effect. I guess I should clarify that. If you get to the point of using the tapes to put a very precise edge on the bevel, then yes, you do have to make some adjustment. Or if you're like at least one guy I know who measures down to the 1/10th of a degree the edge he puts on a knife then yes it matters. But for the most part, in theory it's there, in reality, it doesn't matter. And I've looked at it many times. It will matter with some of the aftermarket stones now being sold, because there's a larger difference in thickness.
Edit to add: If you're coming up with a bigger difference in the math, I'd be interested to see it.
cbw
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Well, it doesn't answer what I asked you at all.
I guess maybe I owe you an apology. I'm sorry I'm not dazzled by your shiny bevels and whittled hairs, and will accept what you say as gospel because of it. I'm sorry that I didn't just ignore it when I saw you posting about something that you were wrong about. Although it was about the EP, this really isn't an EP issue.
And I'm disappointed that you don't want to engage in a conversation and present something that others could learn from.
Really, forget about the EP, at this point. I'm more interested in the bigger issue you brought up.
cbw
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From the initial post and what you quoted there, I am missing where the problem is. The benefit of the EP is consistent angles and easing the path to polished bevels. Knifenut gets polished bevels, and his method seems easy enough for him to do it repeatedly. He has no need for it, and has no reason to be impressed. You don't have to be dazzled by his shiny bevels, and he does not have to be dazzled by the shiny bevels of the EP. They're both shiny bevels, and how you get there is pretty irrelevant.
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When it comes to sharpening I will admit to being a "freehand nut" for all of the mentioned reasons.
I am all for anyone who carries a razor sharp knife, no matter how it got that way, so a big +1 to all of you guys.
One thing which was not mentioned is that sharpening systems often cannot accommodate large knives. Since they work on an axis -don't they alter the edge geometry as they get further from said axis? I would think this becomes significant after about 4-5 inches of blade.
With a small DMT credit card sharpener (with extra fine grit glued to the back) and a small extra hard stone a skilled freehand sharpener can sharpen a very large knife, machete, and even an axe when he is in the field to razor sharpness. (Not to mention how easy it is with an 8" diamond stone at home.)
This is where the skill of freehand comes into play -you have the ability to sharpen large knives/ machetes/ axes with one or two tools (depending on how refined you want the edge) and you can carry it with you all the time (even backpacking).
If there was a sharpening system that could sharpen axes and machetes, it would probably be too large to carry anywhere (EDC).
So, if you are truly crazy about your edge, shouldn't freehand be the first and primary skill you want to have? I can see how it might alter your perfect geometric edge, but at least you will always stay sharp, no matter where you are or what size tool you have.
My 2 cents,
Thanks
Not sure if that is way off topic...
I am all for anyone who carries a razor sharp knife, no matter how it got that way, so a big +1 to all of you guys.
One thing which was not mentioned is that sharpening systems often cannot accommodate large knives. Since they work on an axis -don't they alter the edge geometry as they get further from said axis? I would think this becomes significant after about 4-5 inches of blade.
With a small DMT credit card sharpener (with extra fine grit glued to the back) and a small extra hard stone a skilled freehand sharpener can sharpen a very large knife, machete, and even an axe when he is in the field to razor sharpness. (Not to mention how easy it is with an 8" diamond stone at home.)
This is where the skill of freehand comes into play -you have the ability to sharpen large knives/ machetes/ axes with one or two tools (depending on how refined you want the edge) and you can carry it with you all the time (even backpacking).
If there was a sharpening system that could sharpen axes and machetes, it would probably be too large to carry anywhere (EDC).
So, if you are truly crazy about your edge, shouldn't freehand be the first and primary skill you want to have? I can see how it might alter your perfect geometric edge, but at least you will always stay sharp, no matter where you are or what size tool you have.
My 2 cents,
Thanks
Not sure if that is way off topic...
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Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I don't want to engage because of posts like this...... I'd rather not add fuel to the fire. Why teach when no one want's to learn.
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Nope, I would have to agree with what you seem to have there. My math indicates that if you take you difference in medium thickness and multiply by about 9. That answer is your difference in angle in degrees (roughly). Said another way a difference in medium thickness of 0.1 inch is almost a degree difference (0.9 degrees) in grind. Minuscule yes, but after all we ARE splitting hairs here LOL.
In your reality it may not matter. In the reality that others live in the price of the EP system may also not matter. It has everything to do with your own personal preferences. Honestly, I think the EP is a really eloquent system, but in my reality, I find the same money invested in diamond stones and strops brings more enjoyment.
Thanks for objective and civil discussion. I have enjoyed it. For the record, yes, I also measure as close as my abilities allow...and I try to improve those abilities constantly.
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I own an Edge Pro and I'll say it's not worth it. I paid $200.00 for the Apex large kit. It's well built, with good stones. But it simply isn't worth what you pay for it. If that kit were $50.00 it would be the greatest thing since sliced bread but it's not. And the coarse stones wear out FAR too fast IMHO. For nearly the SAME amount of money I bought a Kalamazoo 1SM belt grinder that runs at a nice slow speed. And after just a few bucks in belts... ALL of my knives are sharper than the Edge Pro ever got them. And I won't have to reorder more stones. Belts are cheap and work great. Now my kalamazoo but a convex grind on everything instead of a flat v-grind but I find the convex to be superior in strength and easier to maintain. And this is coming from someone that bought, still owns, and has used an Edge Pre Apex and found it wanting. Buy what you like. That Kalamazoo was the best purchase I ever made. These angle giude kits are just an expensive way for people not to learn how to actually sharpen their knives. One doesn't need such a kit when one knows how to sharpen a blade without it.
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One issue hasn't been addressed here to any extent.
If you properly maintain your edges, with regular stropping and/or steeling with a quality smooth rod (I like glass rods, myself) then the issue of coarse stones wearing out quickly is a non-issue.
Actually, I seldom use the stones on my EP at all on my better knives. I usually maintain them with the rod and strop, going to a mylar tape occassionally.
Once you've sharpened a quality, properly tempered steel like D-2, M-2 S30V, S90V, CPM M-4 etc to .25 micron, it's not very hard to maintain.
Even on my lower end knives, I seldom allow them to get so dull that I need to use a stone coarser than 600 grit.
If you properly maintain your edges, with regular stropping and/or steeling with a quality smooth rod (I like glass rods, myself) then the issue of coarse stones wearing out quickly is a non-issue.
Actually, I seldom use the stones on my EP at all on my better knives. I usually maintain them with the rod and strop, going to a mylar tape occassionally.
Once you've sharpened a quality, properly tempered steel like D-2, M-2 S30V, S90V, CPM M-4 etc to .25 micron, it's not very hard to maintain.
Even on my lower end knives, I seldom allow them to get so dull that I need to use a stone coarser than 600 grit.