ESEE Junglas - Throwing

if he did say they were from throwing... i will retract what i've said and i'll accept this as proof.
that does not mean i'm going to stop throwing my junglas tho.
 
smokeylovesmolly said:
if he did say they were from throwing... i will retract what i've said and i'll accept this as proof.
that does not mean i'm going to stop throwing my junglas tho.
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Keep on rocking man, from what I've learned is that people will act overly sensitive on here ...

You know... the media has rotten a lot of our brains.... warning us about almost anything and telling us everything is bad for us.
 
DedRok said:
Keep on rocking man, from what I've learned is that people will act overly sensitive on here ...

You know... the media has rotten a lot of our brains.... warning us about almost anything and telling us everything is bad for us.
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couldn't agree more. thanks man
 
smokeylovesmolly said:
one question.... can someone please post videos of hardened knives breaking while being thrown?

i can not seem to find any.

you can say "people know better" but that doesn't show me any proof what you guys are saying.
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Here you are. Becker BK2 (.25in thick) and broken clean through by throwing.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/793530-Broken-BK2

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The only Becker BK2 that I've ever heard of breaking, was broken by throwing it "several hundred times". The BK2 is about as stout of a knife as they come, and I would venture to say that because of its thicker stock and shorter blade length, it might be less likely to break than the Junglas would.

As it has been explained to you a number of times, throwing a hardened blade creates micro-fractures. Those micro-fractures propagate and eventually will cause the blade to fail.

The reason that batoning and chopping is not as hard on the blade as throwing is because the blade is not allowed to freely resonate. Your hand ends up absorbing much of the shock that hurts the knife (and in turn makes your hands numb :p).

It is your knife though, so do what you want, but at least understand that just because it didn't break right then, doesn't mean it will never break doing the same thing.

And also, you're much better at throwing than I am. I'm about 50/50 with my throws, and because of that I think I wouldn't choose the ever throw my knife if the "need" ever arose.
 
I would just like to see what else you do with your knives besides throwing them. If you go out in the backyard and baton some stuff, do some chopping etc, make a video and think you've justified buying those knives, that is of course your call. Most people, when they watch such videos, want to see the knife being put to the test, true. Not many people like seeing it misused though. Had you posted a thread with your opinion rather than trying for an attention grabbing video where you knew you would get negative reactions(since you seem to be intelligent), you probably would have gotten a better reaction. Looks like you disabled your comments on account of trolls...lol. I'm not sure what you expected. I'll give you the kind of comment you want:

Great job throwing! You only missed one time. I'm sure that knife will take that abuse and come back for more! If you ever need to stop an attacker/bear/zombie, now you know you can throw your knife at them and get away safely. Your skinny jeans and loose-laced shoes really help your accuracy and establish your credibility as a knife aficionado! :thumbup:
 
RemyKaze said:
I would just like to see what else you do with your knives besides throwing them. If you go out in the backyard and baton some stuff, do some chopping etc, make a video and think you've justified buying those knives, that is of course your call. Most people, when they watch such videos, want to see the knife being put to the test, true. Not many people like seeing it misused though. Had you posted a thread with your opinion rather than trying for an attention grabbing video where you knew you would get negative reactions(since you seem to be intelligent), you probably would have gotten a better reaction. Looks like you disabled your comments on account of trolls...lol. I'm not sure what you expected. I'll give you the kind of comment you want:

Great job throwing! You only missed one time. I'm sure that knife will take that abuse and come back for more! If you ever need to stop an attacker/bear/zombie, now you know you can throw your knife at them and get away safely. Your skinny jeans and loose-laced shoes really help your accuracy and establish your credibility as a knife aficionado! :thumbup:
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how in any way was this an "attention grabbing" video?

what do my shoes and pants have anything what-so-ever to do with my knives?
...i never claimed to be an aficionado.

i do not appreciate your snarkey sarcastic comment.

there is already videos of people chopping logs, camping with the junglas, and using it to cut beer cans and whatever else...
i thought i would make a different one and share it with you people.

i wear the clothes i wear because i'm a skater, tattoo artist, and i've always dressed this way.
you going to make fun of my "short" shorts? ...good for you.

some people don't have the time to get out in the back country because of work.
i am not a knife expert. i never claimed to be.

i just have fun with the things i buy.

you can call it misuse, but i have already supplied a video of a guy battening through wood
and having his junglas break with "normal" use.

like i've said, if its going to break ...its going to break.

if people want to watch a video of the junglas being used "properly" they can check out the other junglas videos.
if they want to see someone having fun with it, they can check out my video.
 
Shotgun said:
The owner of the company says it's idiotic to throw knives and says you'll break them doing so. Can you not take that at face value? :confused:
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You are joking, yes? What precisely is the "face value" of such a statement? Is it scientific evidence based on analyses of the grain-structure in his knives and repeated empirical trials supporting his hypothesis?

No? Hmm, then perhaps if the owner said, "OUR knives are likely to break when thrown," I'd accept that as a manufacturer recommendation, and not as an attempt at objective universal truth "knives break when thrown".

In short, NO, no one should take such an assertion at face value, especially when accidental empirically generated data overwhelmingly contradicts the assertion. Back it up with something!

ocnLogan said:
...
The only Becker BK2 that I've ever heard of breaking, was broken by throwing it "several hundred times". The BK2 is about as stout of a knife as they come, and I would venture to say that because of its thicker stock and shorter blade length, it might be less likely to break than the Junglas would.

As it has been explained to you a number of times, throwing a hardened blade creates micro-fractures. Those micro-fractures propagate and eventually will cause the blade to fail.

The reason that batoning and chopping is not as hard on the blade as throwing is because the blade is not allowed to freely resonate. Your hand ends up absorbing much of the shock that hurts the knife (and in turn makes your hands numb :p).

It is your knife though, so do what you want, but at least understand that just because it didn't break right then, doesn't mean it will never break doing the same thing...
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I love this, the assertion that throwing caused the BK2 failure despite "several hundred" non-failure throws. Some one please PROVE or direct me to a study supporting this assertion?? "Throwing a hardened blade creates micro-fractures" - a blade hardened HOW? A blade of what molecular compostion and grain structure at what hardness? Where is the metallurgy to support this? "Resonate"? Where is the evidence to support this notion? Ever batonned without holding the knife handle? Hmm... nothing dampening the "resonance"...:eek: Sorry, that theory doesn't hold water.

Here is a theory regarding the Junglas and the failed BK2: the BK2 was materially flawed, there was a minute fissure amidst carbides in that portion of the blade, and due to the lower ductility of the blade material, as well as its short length and thick spine, the blade was unable to flex sufficiently to absorb repeated torquing, resulting in eventual failure. The Junglas on the other hand is longer, thinner, and structurally sound, and so is better able to disperse the energy following a throw.

Prove my theory wrong.

As to the broken ESEE knives with worn tips, clearly throwers, so what? If that suggests to a person that throwing these knives results in fracture in the blade just above the ricasso, that constitutes anecdotal evidence of the theory for these specific knives, not for all knives in general. And now that there is anecdotal evidence, why not set about proving the theory rather than insisting that an unproven hypothesis is truth?

Let a metallurgist step in and give an objective assessment of the science behind the theory. Otherwise, MYTH.

Non-myth: ESEE knives break, and fans + company owners b!+ch about it when it happens, call you an idiot if their knife breaks, make up an explanation for why it broke, imply that since their knives are of excellent quality then all knives must suffer from the same weaknesses, and then attack your personal appearance/attributes (ad hominem).


Still, they make what seem to be pretty tough knives and they're cheaper than Bussekin.
Maybe next time try SR77 or SR101 or INFI? See if anyone complains about your videos then!
And my apologies for not expressing earlier how impressed i am with that throwing accuracy. Well done! :thumbup:
 
smokeylovesmolly said:
if he did say they were from throwing... i will retract what i've said and i'll accept this as proof.
that does not mean i'm going to stop throwing my junglas tho.
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Some of them were said to have been from throwing, yes. I cannot guarantee it was those ones, but some were.

I am by no means trying to get you to stop. Just showing that they can break.
 
I seriously think throwing is something that a knife that is advertised as hard use should be able to withstand. All these pics of broken knives which are not OP's has helped me learn what brands to avoid. A tough full tang knife should be able to be pounded tip first into wood or earth. Mor Kochanski writes that a good knife should be able to survive being pounded 4cm sideways into a tree and then stood on. The broken knives must have a bad heat treat or are over hardened.

Hadji Flip Me Over said:
I don't want to resort to name-calling, but this is one of the dumbest things I've seen since I started using the internet. And the internet is a pretty big place....
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If this is the dumbest thing you've seen on the internet I suggest you stay on bladeforums. Even youtube has far more to reduce your faith in humanity.
 
brandonc said:
A tough full tang knife should be able to be pounded tip first into wood or earth.
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Pounding is different than throwing.
Throwing knives are hardened to a lower hardness to resist the forces of throwing (which are different than the forces of pounding or chopping)...and they make shitty actual use knives due to the lower hardness.
Different uses require different tools designed and hardened differently (wow, who'da thought?)
 
thank you very much chiral.grolim, the way you word your objective questioning is bad @$$.
also, thanks much for the throwing compliment
 
chiral.grolim said:
I love this, the assertion that throwing caused the BK2 failure despite "several hundred" non-failure throws. Some one please PROVE or direct me to a study supporting this assertion?? "Throwing a hardened blade creates micro-fractures" - a blade hardened HOW? A blade of what molecular compostion and grain structure at what hardness? Where is the metallurgy to support this? "Resonate"? Where is the evidence to support this notion? Ever batonned without holding the knife handle? Hmm... nothing dampening the "resonance"...:eek: Sorry, that theory doesn't hold water.
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I don't have any tests of that type of study. The OP asked for someone to provide an example of a knife that failed expressly by throwing, which is what I provided.

Also, I've never batoned a knife without holding the handle (seems really dangerous, it could fly out). And even if you didn't hold the handle, the most of the force of the blow from the baton is transferred through the blade to the material being split. Same concept applies when you hit a croquet ball that is touching another croquet ball to send one of them flying.

It is my understanding that when throwing the energy doesn't transfer as cleanly, and more is left "in the blade" to dissipate by resonating. Now we just need a real expert to come in and learn us all what is going on here.

chiral.grolim said:
Here is a theory regarding the Junglas and the failed BK2: the BK2 was materially flawed, there was a minute fissure amidst carbides in that portion of the blade, and due to the lower ductility of the blade material, as well as its short length and thick spine, the blade was unable to flex sufficiently to absorb repeated torquing, resulting in eventual failure. The Junglas on the other hand is longer, thinner, and structurally sound, and so is better able to disperse the energy following a throw.
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So wait, what you just said was what I said, but with more words. Basically a small flaw became a larger flaw through repeated stresses. And what you wrote could be true. Under the assumption that no single piece of steel is completely flawless you could have just described why it is that hardened blades have broken while throwing. I'm no metalurgist. I just know that harder things are more brittle. This is why machetes are generally run a bit softer (less prone to chipping/breaking), and why super chef knives are often run much harder (not subject to much "hard use", and we want the edge holding and super acute angle).

chiral.grolim said:
As to the broken ESEE knives with worn tips, clearly throwers, so what? If that suggests to a person that throwing these knives results in fracture in the blade just above the ricasso, that constitutes anecdotal evidence of the theory for these specific knives, not for all knives in general. And now that there is anecdotal evidence, why not set about proving the theory rather than insisting that an unproven hypothesis is truth?

Let a metallurgist step in and give an objective assessment of the science behind the theory. Otherwise, MYTH.
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My guess for this last part is because of the limited sample size, and the fact that no one really wants to go out there and beat up on their own knives, especially because it would have to be a pretty large number for the sample (enough from each batch, etc). An organization could do it though, and I'm actually kind of sure that someone out there has done something like this. I mean, all of the purpose built throwing knives are softer, there has to be some sort of reason for it.

And also, the circumstancial evidence of certain knives breaking helps us come up with theories that could apply to far more than just one specific knife. I would call the "myth" of a knife breaking because it was thrown more of a theory for me. A Myth is something that doesn't have any truth, but a theory is something that could be true, but is as of yet untested/unproven.

We just have to dig someone up that knows this stuff. I would be really interested to know.

chiral.grolim said:
Still, they make what seem to be pretty tough knives and they're cheaper than Bussekin.
Maybe next time try SR77 or SR101 or INFI? See if anyone complains about your videos then!
And my apologies for not expressing earlier how impressed i am with that throwing accuracy. Well done! :thumbup:
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Agree completely, although to be honest, I would still be saying I wouldn't do it if it were my Busse/SYKC. And yes, you put my knife throwing to shame. I learned how to throw knives by using a 4ft tall Pillsbury doughboy that was made out of Styrofoam (buddy worked at a grocery store and got the old floor ad) as a target. Turns out... Styrofoam doesn't care what angle your blade hits it... it just always goes in :). It was great fun though.

Where did you learn to throw? I've still got my old throwing knives around, but haven't been able to find any really great tutorials or things on it. Plus I don't know anyone personally that has skill with it, which is probably why I'm so bad at it :(.
 
Sigh. Its finals week, and I know I shouldn't be doing this, but here goes.

I love this, the assertion that throwing caused the BK2 failure despite "several hundred" non-failure throws. Some one please PROVE or direct me to a study supporting this assertion??
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Fatigue. 80-90% off all metal failure is caused by fatigue. In this case, throwing the knife is probably exceeding the maximum stress for infinite life (surviving forever even though there is repeated stress) and it WILL eventually break, even though it looks fine. This maximum fatigue stress is related to the hardness, a softer knife will live longer at higher stresses than a hard knife. This is caused by the propagation of cracks and defects inside the material. I can point you to a study of this, but you won't recognize the guy's name and it wouldn't mean much to you. I can point you here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material), which has a pretty decent article on it or to Chapter six of any of the norton machine design books.

Here is a theory regarding the Junglas and the failed BK2: the BK2 was materially flawed, there was a minute fissure amidst carbides in that portion of the blade, and due to the lower ductility of the blade material, as well as its short length and thick spine, the blade was unable to flex sufficiently to absorb repeated torquing, resulting in eventual failure.
Click to expand...

Wrong on a few accounts, mainly being
1. There isn't any torque on a knife when being thrown. In fact, you only get torque if you use your knife as a screw driver, otherwise its all bending stress. (this is just a general correction as mislabeling stresses is a pet peeve of mine)
2. ALL materials are flawed. This is a proven fact and has to be taken into account when designing something. This leads to stress concentration and fatigue failure. So every knife will have "Fissures" in it.
3. ''flex'' has nothing to do with ductility, and all to do with young's modulus, which is the same for all steels at any hardness rating. Ductility effects how much energy something can take before failure after it has yielded.

Is it scientific evidence based on analyses of the grain-structure in his knives and repeated empirical trials supporting his hypothesis?
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Well, yes actually. At the hardness rating that ESEE does their knives, throwing them will eventually cause failure (caused by fatigue) if you exceed a certain stress. This applies to most of the knives at the same hardness level as well. Which is why most throwing knives are at a much lower hardness level, so they can handle the stresses.

Let a metallurgist step in and give an objective assessment of the science behind the theory. Otherwise, MYTH.
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I'm not a metallurgist, I'm an engineer who happens to be pretty good at this stuff. Also, I have the textbook sitting on my desk as a reference.

The OP can throw his knife all he wants, its his choice. But there is a stress at which the knife will break after a finite number of cycles. This applies to everything, including knives.

I hoped this shed some objective light on this thread, I'm not trying to anger anyone just trying to educate.

~Robert
 
robertl said:
Sigh. Its finals week, and I know I shouldn't be doing this, but here goes.



Fatigue. 80-90% off all metal failure is caused by fatigue. In this case, throwing the knife is probably exceeding the maximum stress for infinite life (surviving forever even though there is repeated stress) and it WILL eventually break, even though it looks fine. This maximum fatigue stress is related to the hardness, a softer knife will live longer at higher stresses than a hard knife. This is caused by the propagation of cracks and defects inside the material. I can point you to a study of this, but you won't recognize the guy's name and it wouldn't mean much to you. I can point you here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material), which has a pretty decent article on it or to Chapter six of any of the norton machine design books.



Wrong on a few accounts, mainly being
1. There isn't any torque on a knife when being thrown. In fact, you only get torque if you use your knife as a screw driver, otherwise its all bending stress. (this is just a general correction as mislabeling stresses is a pet peeve of mine)
2. ALL materials are flawed. This is a proven fact and has to be taken into account when designing something. This leads to stress concentration and fatigue failure. So every knife will have "Fissures" in it.
3. ''flex'' has nothing to do with ductility, and all to do with young's modulus, which is the same for all steels at any hardness rating. Ductility effects how much energy something can take before failure after it has yielded.



Well, yes actually. At the hardness rating that ESEE does their knives, throwing them will eventually cause failure (caused by fatigue) if you exceed a certain stress. This applies to most of the knives at the same hardness level as well. Which is why most throwing knives are at a much lower hardness level, so they can handle the stresses.



I'm not a metallurgist, I'm an engineer who happens to be pretty good at this stuff. Also, I have the textbook sitting on my desk as a reference.

The OP can throw his knife all he wants, its his choice. But there is a stress at which the knife will break after a finite number of cycles. This applies to everything, including knives.

I hoped this shed some objective light on this thread, I'm not trying to anger anyone just trying to educate.

~Robert
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Quoted that so maybe someone reads it twice ;)
+1 on that post and the one above it. Thanks for being so informative Robert
 
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