EverydayCommentary take on Survive

Here's a constructive suggestion: if sharpening is the major bottleneck, as has been suggested, offer the option of unsharpened knives.
These would be sent out first, while the sharpening on the rest is being done. Many people are perfectly happy, even prefer, to put their own edge on a new knife.
That should speed everything up.
 
mtangent said:
Here's a constructive suggestion: if sharpening is the major bottleneck, as has been suggested, offer the option of unsharpened knives.
These would be sent out first, while the sharpening on the rest is being done. Many people are perfectly happy, even prefer, to put their own edge on a new knife.
That should speed everything up.
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Drops mic and prances off stage!!!
Huge 👍👍👍👍👍👍!!!
The only problem I see with your suggestion MT is it is too easy, therefore it will never happen!
Joe
 
mtangent said:
Here's a constructive suggestion: if sharpening is the major bottleneck, as has been suggested, offer the option of unsharpened knives.
These would be sent out first, while the sharpening on the rest is being done. Many people are perfectly happy, even prefer, to put their own edge on a new knife.
That should speed everything up.
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Interesting idea but will never happen. The reason they are taking so long is because the Owner has OCD. If he obsesses over the smallest of details, NO WAY in Hell is he going to have his knives floating around in the wild with potentially crappy customer made edges.. Hahah.. lol, that just ain't going to happen my friend..
 
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Silver Needle said:
One thing I'm taking away from all this: I wonder if anything on the site that says "in stock" could be changed to "available to order" or "ready for purchase"?

From being around, I understand what "in stock" really can mean, but if I saw the same thing on the Kabar website I'd think that I'd get a shipping notice in a day or two.
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I essentially made the same mistake as this guy when I ordered my CruV 4.7, and I've been around! I made the mistake of seeing "in stock," or reading something here or a production update, that made me think they had a bunch of CruV 4.7's ready to ship, now that they had seen guys test them and like them, that they were ready to release to the wild en masse, in stock, ready to go. It was my misunderstanding, but I understand it was not mine alone. But the continued delay started to wear on me, to the point I was just about ready to call and ask for a refund, literally less than three weeks before I now have it in my grubby little hands. That frustration was not because of an unreasonably long manufacturing time (Busse's, incidentally, is typically longer, but it is well communicated that things aren't in stock, it still needs to be manufactured, and it going to be a while before they are delivered. ) The differences are that Busse seems to MARKET the build times (joke about it, almost), and ones total layout up front is a whole $1. I still maintain my hardest buy-in to S!K was the full up-front payment. But I also believe I understand that need, considering their size, and the amount of raw or contracted material/work they have to deal with. So, it is a different model. I'd rather do business with them like I do with Busse. But the flip side is, at least with S!K, paying up front, I don't have to worry about getting "dinged" in the same month that I'm having to replace a roof or something. So there are advantages to the S!K way. And bottom line, I love the two knives I have so far from them. I almost hate to say it, but they are pretty much worth the wait.
 
I was starting to reply to some of the points made here but I want to make sure it is done right and it has been a long day. I will revisit this thread tomorrow, with coffee in hand.
 
SURVIVE! Ellie said:
I was starting to reply to some of the points made here but I want to make sure it is done right and it has been a long day. I will revisit this thread tomorrow, with coffee in hand.
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Ellie,
I was reading through the posts here and elsewhere. Just giving you a heads up, you guys are clearly violating the FTC Merchandise law regarding taking orders and follow up consent for delays and/or the 30day rule. It's not worth the risk to keep violating it! I help run a business so have to be careful of this myself. Most online companies don't charge until shipping the product so as not to worry about the FTC 30day rule. But because you guys take money up front and thus start a sales order, you are held responsible to the FTC Merchandise law on delays . The responsibility is on Survive, not the customer to follow up with delay notices and get documented consent from the customer (as the law is written). That means you can't simply send customers a one way notice of their product delay, you have to notify and ask for consent to any delays, and then get documented proof of the customer's consent if you can't meet your original stated delivery date. I am referring to the in-stock and 15 day orders you guys sometimes advertise/sell.

Regarding the "pre-order" system, In fact, there is no such thing as open ended indefinite delivery times as you guys have been operating. Under the law (as it is written) when you don't have a guaranteed or given delivery time, you automatically then fall under the "30 day rule". The "30 day rule" is that in the absence of a delivery date, you are automatically responsible by law to deliver withing 30days or give a delay and get consent to continue each and every 30 days after (I believe).. Again, the burden is on Survive! not the customer on the follow ups. Hopefully this is just an easy fix for you guys. Well, I could go on - but you can read it all for yourself.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...s-guide-ftcs-mail-internet-or-telephone-order


https://www.carltonfields.com/onlin...ail-and-telephone-order-purchases-01-16-2015/
 
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Well, that's an interesting turn of information.

If I read the law and the explanation correctly, even Busse (who is so often compared in here, even by me --esp. by me?) may be in violation of this rule, because they take a $1 payment up front. And like I said, they have lately been running even longer than S!K. I just recently got charged full payment on a knife I ordered in Feb. of this year. Although I'm also waiting on Survive knives I ordered late last year. So, anyway, I maintain S!K is only a little more frustrating than Busse in that you pay in full up front. But that has its benefits down the road.
 
mlmcasual said:
Interesting idea but will never happen. The reason they are taking so long is because the Owner has OCD. If he obsesses over the smallest of details, NO WAY in Hell is he going to have his knives floating around in the wild with potentially crappy customer made edges.. Hahah.. lol, that just ain't going to happen my friend..
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Yeah, I kinda see that as trading one business risk for another, really. I'd be stunned to see a maker start selling user knives with no actual edge.
 
SURVIVE! Ellie said:
I was starting to reply to some of the points made here but I want to make sure it is done right and it has been a long day. I will revisit this thread tomorrow, with coffee in hand.
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Hi Ellie, it makes me smile just to see a post from you. :)
I hope that you are having a really great day, and thanks for all the work you do on behalf of us knife enthusiasts! :thumbup:
 
dogboye said:
Well, that's an interesting turn of information.

If I read the law and the explanation correctly, even Busse (who is so often compared in here, even by me --esp. by me?) may be in violation of this rule, because they take a $1 payment up front. And like I said, they have lately been running even longer than S!K. I just recently got charged full payment on a knife I ordered in Feb. of this year. Although I'm also waiting on Survive knives I ordered late last year. So, anyway, I maintain S!K is only a little more frustrating than Busse in that you pay in full up front. But that has its benefits down the road.
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I don't know about Busse.. All they (or Survive!) have to do by FTC law is be up front and provide an estimated delivery date. Even if it's very long times Ie. Six months, Survive! or Busse just have to give their delivery time up front. Then (if) a delay happens, the company HAS to both notify and get documented consent from the customer to continue. If NO delivery time frame is given (A very long time BTW is NOT considered by FTC law as time frame!), then the seller is held responsible to a 30 day delivery.

The LAST thing you want to do as a business is Take partial or full payment up front and then provide no delivery time or miss your delivery time and provide no notification and consent to continue. The FTC retains law enforcement and a staff of lawyers that can act unilateral to pose HUGE fines of thousands of dollars PER Violation. It's just not worth the risk! This is not doom and gloom though, Survive can continue to work on thier own timeframes.. they just have to give notice upfront of a delivery time and then follow up with delay notification and also get consent.
 
Fancier said:
I don't want the FTC protecting me from my own decisions. :)
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Well that's the point.. the way the FTC law reads, you have to be GIVEN the decision up front and also upon delays.

If Busse says six to eight weeks up front thats fine, and if they run over eight weeks they too would be required to notify customers INDIVIDUALLY of the delay and give the individual customers the decision to get an immediate refund or keep waiting.
I have talked to the FTC myself because I don't want to get in trouble in my own business though I do a net-30 invoice in my business so it's not normally a concern.
 
Quick post:

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...s-guide-ftcs-mail-internet-or-telephone-order

What is the Mail, Internet, or Telephone Order Rule?

The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."
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S!K does in fact make a shipment statement, they state repeatedly "no guaranteed delivery date" on pre-orders. The 15-day-processing stuff, well i haven't ordered one so don't know the language presented there, otherwise I would assume that the rule applies there.

Further:

When you take orders by telephone, or the Internet, you may choose to provide prospective customers with updated shipment information. This may differ from what you said or implied about the shipment time in your advertising. The updated shipment information you provide on the telephone or the Internet supersedes any shipment representation you made in the advertising. You also must have a reasonable basis for the updated shipment representation.

"Reasonable basis" means that the merchant has, at the time of making the representation, such information as would under the circumstances satisfy a reasonable and prudent businessperson, acting in good faith, that the representation is true.

...

Remember: Whether you make a shipment representation or rely on the 30-day rule, your advertising should be unambiguous about when you will ship.
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You can find S!K's wording here: http://surviveknives.com/how-to-buy/

For the record, my first Busse knives were paid for via Debit Card, it works just like a credit-card except that I was charged IN FULL at the time i placed the order. *shrug*

EDIT to add:

What You Must Do If You Learn You Cannot Ship on Time

When you learn that you cannot ship on time, you must decide whether you will ever be able to ship the order. If you decide that you cannot, you must promptly cancel the order and make a full refund.

If you decide you can ship the order later, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delay. You may use whatever means you wish to do this -- such as the telephone, fax, mail, or email -- as long as you notify the customer of the delay reasonably quickly. The customer must have sufficient advance notification to make a meaningful decision to consent to the delay or cancel the order.

Some businesses adopt internal deadlines that are earlier than those set by the Rule to ensure that their delay notices give all customers a meaningful opportunity to consent to the delay. If businesses fail to ship or give delay notifications by their internal deadlines, they automatically cancel the orders and make refunds.

In any event, no notification to the customer can take longer than the time you originally promised or, if no time was promised, 30 days. If you cannot ship the order or provide the notice within this time, you must cancel the order and make a prompt refund.
What a First Delay Option Notice Must Say

In seeking your customer’s consent to delay, the first delay notice you provide to the customer (the "delay option" notice) must include:

a definite revised shipment date or, if unknown, a statement that you are unable to provide a revised shipment date;
a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order and obtain a full and prompt refund; and
some means for the customer to choose to cancel at your expense (e.g., by providing a postage prepaid reply card, toll-free telephone number, or website).
the following information when you cannot provide a revised shipping date:
the reason for the delay, and
a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship the merchandise.

If your first delay option notice provides a definite revised shipping date of 30 days or less, you must inform customers that their non-response will be treated as a consent to the delay.


...You also have the option of seeking your customer’s affirmative agreement to the delay. In any event, you must indicate what will happen if the customer does not respond.
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In the above, the company needn't contact INDIVIDUAL customers specifically but can send out a mass e-mail that includes the addresses, so long as there is a reasonable expectation that the message reaches the applicable customers. Further, the first delay-notice can include a "silence is consent" clause, thus customers need not respond. Only those that specifically ask for a refund need to be refunded. Contrary to Mark Marion's post above, you do not need "documented consent" for that delay.

53 days without a response is too long, unless there was wording indicating delay at 30-days or whatever the expected shipment date was.

The rule goes on:

If you cannot ship the merchandise by the definite revised shipment date included in your most recent delay option notice, before that date you must seek the consent of your customers to any further delay. You must do this by providing customers a "renewed" delay option notice. A renewed delay option notice is similar in many ways to the first delay option notice. One important difference: the customer’s silence may not be treated as a consent to delay.
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So there you have it. If S!K or any other knife company does NOT express the expected delivery time, then 30-days is assumed, and before the end of 30-days they must send a message indicating shipment or a delay with "reasonable" explanation and a means for customers to cancel their order if desired, and can state "silence is consent". Near the end of that revised time frame, they must issue a second notice and this time DEMAND consent or assert the cancellation of unfulfilled orders - here, "silence is consent" to your cancelled order. However, if S!K or any other company specifically states the delivery time-frame, then that is the time-frame their are obliged to - including a "no delivery date" time-frame - and delay-notices must be shipped near the end of that time-frame. So us pre-order folk, the Production Updates are our friend ;) For those ordering "in stock" items, S!K needs to be contacting you in accordance with this rule, either with a delay-explanation or a shipment notification :)
 
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It appears to me (based on the how-to-buy page) that Monday sales and Pre-Sales are where they risk running awry of the FTC law. Because, as I recall, in both those cases (I've done several pre-sales, and almost managed to get one Monday sale), the item shows as "in stock."
 
dogboye said:
It appears to me (based on the how-to-buy page) that Monday sales and Pre-Sales are where they risk running awry of the FTC law. Because, as I recall, in both those cases (I've done several pre-sales, and almost managed to get one Monday sale), the item shows as "in stock."
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Do you happen to have an e-mail/confirmation or something that makes a delivery statement? "In stock" isn't an applicable term under this, it simply assumes the same "30-day rule" unless stated otherwise at the time of purchase.
 
That's the problem, they don't make a delivery statement. I'll go back and check my receipts. But does the law say they can make the statement AFTER they take the money? Or is it supposed to be up front? And does it count for them to be making the statement on some media like Bladeforums or Facebook?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that I want them to get hammered. I pointed that out because I believe that is a point where they could GET hammered, and I specifically want them to protect themselves. Because if they got hammered for the number of times they got orders that way, with a $16,000 fine EACH TIME, I can kiss getting any more knives from Survive good-bye, and the gloom and doom-sayers like that one guy that kept or keeps trolling your youtube videos will end up being correct, by default. At least that is the way I see it.
 
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