EverydayCommentary take on Survive

My 5.1 pre-sale and 4.7 CruV receipts make no statement regarding delivery times. I'm 99% certain that the order page for those didn't give a delivery time. I assumed the 5.1 pre-sale would not be quick, because it was listed as a pre-sale, so i assumed they weren't built. And the order receipt calls it a pre-sale.

The 4.7 CruV receipt says neither pre-order nor pre-sale. I don't have a screen shot of the order page, so I just have to go from memory, which was just a statement of "In Stock." But in either case, no stated delivery time.

By the way, the turnaround on the 5.1 pre-sale was so quick, it probably spoiled me on their delivery times. It was just a little over 2 months.
 
My 5.1 pre-sale and 4.7 CruV receipts make no statement regarding delivery times. I'm 99% certain that the order page for those didn't give a delivery time. I assumed the 5.1 pre-sale would not be quick, because it was listed as a pre-sale, so i assumed they weren't built. And the order receipt calls it a pre-sale.

The 4.7 CruV receipt says neither pre-order nor pre-sale. I don't have a screen shot of the order page, so I just have to go from memory, which was just a statement of "In Stock." But in either case, no stated delivery time.

By the way, the turnaround on the 5.1 pre-sale was so quick, it probably spoiled me on their delivery times. It was just a little over 2 months.

Sounds like the 4.7 CruV would be a "30-day" product then. And any e-mail/newsletter/etc. to customers indicating a delay complies with this "rule". *shrug*

Seiferds need more people in the shop to help with inventory. When you have over 1000 knives that need processing (to go by some of those production photos), you need more people working on them. Again, Randall craftsmen put out 1 blade per person per day and are consistently behind by some 36,000 knives, but they've been at this for generations and have very specific limitations on new orders. Guy just let in too many pre-orders and for too many models, and now he has folk like Mark here bad-mouthing him all over the internet. *shrug* Nathan Carothers does mostly in-house work, was willing to open a pre-order for his Field Knife after customer demand, but limited it to just 40 knives, and he does still make and sell other models on a weekly basis... 40 knives equated to "several months" for him and Jo all alone. Guy needs to be closer to 40 knives per day with his list :eek:. But in truth, I have no idea how many S!K ships out each day, nor how many knives are in each of those >10,000 orders.

I hope being on the Starter does not put me much in the way of the "in stock" impatient people ;) I want my knives, but I have time and other knives to keep me company. I bought in as an investment in Guy's efforts, and hope that anyone else who participated did the same. And their still better than any production or mid-tech knife that I've seen from any other company, especially for the price. I can wait.
 
Guy just let in too many pre-orders and for too many models, and now he has folk like Mark here bad-mouthing him all over the internet.

If I was forced at gunpoint to offer backseat driving business running opinions, I'd offer up this for future consideration.
 
Quick post:

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...s-guide-ftcs-mail-internet-or-telephone-order

S!K does in fact make a shipment statement, they state repeatedly "no guaranteed delivery date" on pre-orders. The 15-day-processing stuff, well i haven't ordered one so don't know the language presented there, otherwise I would assume that the rule applies there.

So there So us pre-order folk, the Production Updates are our friend ;) For those ordering "in stock" items, S!K needs to be contacting you in accordance with this rule, either with a delay-explanation or a shipment notification :)

That's incorrect and you are doing a disservice to Survive! by giving out wrong information... I have talked to FTC direct on this and it's in writing.
Complying With The Rule
By law, you must have a reasonable basis for stating that a product can be shipped within a certain time. If your advertising doesn't clearly and prominently state the shipment period, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days.

If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund.

The law treats a shipping statement as a "within a certain time period".. If you make no promise, you have not given a time period and that is not a shipping statement thus the 30 day rule goes into effect. A double negative does not cancel out the law. In other words saying at the POS, "we don't give any guarantees of delivery time" is NOT seen by thet FTC law as having given a delivery time! I don't know why that is so complicated to understand? Now, you can play word games all day long and hurl insults my way a(i think its meant as an insult) to call me mark marian? I am NOT mark marian though I have read his rants. But either way doesn't change the law and the risk Survive makes by continuing to violate it.
 
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That's incorrect and you are doing a disservice to Survive! by giving out wrong information... I have talked to FTC direct on this and it's in writing.


The law treats a shipping statement as a "within a certain time period".. If you make no promise, you have not given a time period and that is not a shipping statement thus the 30 day rule goes into effect. A double negative does not cancel out the law. In other words saying at the POS, "we don't give any guarantees of delivery time" is NOT seen by thet FTC law as having given a delivery time! I don't know why that is so complicated to understand? Now, you can play word games all day long and hurl insults my way a(i think its meant as an insult) to call me mark marian? I am NOT mark marian though I have read his rants. But either way doesn't change the law and the risk Survive makes by continuing to violate it.

The writing you have presented doesn't state that they need to ship within 30-days when they state, multiple times, "no guaranteed delivery date", indeed it states:

The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days.
For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay.

Survive! has a "shipment statement" that does not "state or imply" a specific time for the pre-order models, indeed it states "No Guaranteed Delivery Date", and furthermore purchase requires the customer to clearly and explicitly consent to this when they place the order. Therefore, the company has BOTH made a statement of delayed delivery AND acquired informed consent of each individual customer = requirements satisfied.

And further:

What a First Delay Option Notice Must Say

In seeking your customer’s consent to delay, the first delay notice you provide to the customer (the "delay option" notice) must include:

a definite revised shipment date or, if unknown, a statement that you are unable to provide a revised shipment date;
a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order and obtain a full and prompt refund; and
some means for the customer to choose to cancel at your expense (e.g., by providing a postage prepaid reply card, toll-free telephone number, or website).
the following information when you cannot provide a revised shipping date:
the reason for the delay, and
a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship the merchandise.

Indefinite shipment times are allowed under the law, provided you have customer consent, which Survive! requires upon initial placement of any pre-order.

Consent = consent, and in this case there was no "silence" on the part of the customer. EDIT to add: If you placed a pre-order, you consented to the delay. If you placed ANY order, you probably still had to check a box consenting to some delivery time-frame, be it indefinite or definite. If S!K or any other company is in violation of this law, it would only be where they have met with delays and failed to notify customers that agreed to a definite and specific delivery time-frame or refused a refund to those who refused consent. I've never heard of that happening, though I do remember reading about someone opening a credit-card dispute with them over a refund, and they now have a notice about that on the website.
 
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It's always fun watching people play lawyer on the internet, trying to justify everything to fit their point of view.

Trying to interpret laws, rules, and regulations is best left up to people who have the knowledge and experience to do so because ignorance makes for a pretty poor defense in court.

Survive should really consider defending their own position, all the sideline crusading just makes them look like they are intentionally hiding behind a few people rather than addressing the obviously growing legitimate concerns of their customers (The people that keep you in business) receiving what they paid for, and in a realistic time frame. It also makes their sub forum, (their main avenue of reaching potential new customers) look extremely inhospitable to new people thinking of trying their products but are turned away by the negativity and outright childish hostility directed at 'outsiders'. You'd be surprised how many have been turned away. If your customers, potential customers, or worse, lost customers, are all screaming the same thing then you might want to stop and consider what they have to say.

Having customers jump up and down for you is great, letting a handful of them attack/demean/insult potential new customers for daring to inquire or voice their concerns over product availability/lead times, etc.in their own manufacturers forum is just foolish.

Unless your goal is to turn people away from buying Survive products, then by all means carry on.
 
This is jealousy at its best! Lol. I read this whole forum and thought who cares? Really I mean if you want the nice it's a no brainier, you have to wait for it, if you don't like waiting buy something else, don't get angry, just use your head people. Survive makes a good product, many other companies make good products. Just buy the one you want when it's available and if it's not either wait patiently or buy something else. If there is one thing I have learned In the knife world it's that you can find a very similar design to almost every knife out there so if you don't want to wait just look for something like it and buy it. No need to have a hissy fit


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It's always fun watching people play lawyer on the internet, trying to justify everything to fit their point of view.

Trying to interpret laws, rules, and regulations is best left up to people who have the knowledge and experience to do so because ignorance makes for a pretty poor defense in court.

Survive should really consider defending their own position, all the sideline crusading just makes them look like they are intentionally hiding behind a few people rather than addressing the obviously growing legitimate concerns of their customers (The people that keep you in business) receiving what they paid for, and in a realistic time frame. It also makes their sub forum, (their main avenue of reaching potential new customers) look extremely inhospitable to new people thinking of trying their products but are turned away by the negativity and outright childish hostility directed at 'outsiders'. You'd be surprised how many have been turned away. If your customers, potential customers, or worse, lost customers, are all screaming the same thing then you might want to stop and consider what they have to say.

Having customers jump up and down for you is great, letting a handful of them attack/demean/insult potential new customers for daring to inquire or voice their concerns over product availability/lead times, etc.in their own manufacturers forum is just foolish.

Unless your goal is to turn people away from buying Survive products, then by all means carry on.
I'll agree that the legal stuff never should have been brought up.

What potential new customers are you talking about? The ones already ranting in the GBU, GKD and W&C? Why would they be welcomed with open arms if they've already displayed that they don't like the company and believe it's doomed to fail?

There have been a lot of people here who came in asking genuine questions and even started out quite skeptical that turned out fine and decided to stick around. Where's this childish hostility here?

SURVIVE! isn't a perfect company and they'll never be able to please everyone. I'm not saying concerns aren't valid or that there isn't room for improvement, but the below quote sums it up pretty well.

This is jealousy at its best! Lol. I read this whole forum and thought who cares? Really I mean if you want the nice it's a no brainier, you have to wait for it, if you don't like waiting buy something else, don't get angry, just use your head people. Survive makes a good product, many other companies make good products. Just buy the one you want when it's available and if it's not either wait patiently or buy something else. If there is one thing I have learned In the knife world it's that you can find a very similar design to almost every knife out there so if you don't want to wait just look for something like it and buy it. No need to have a hissy fit


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Well said! I share your sentiments.
 
That is exactly what upsets me. Guy knows how many knives he produces a day (yes, we are aware of unforeseen circumstances, vacations, etc) and I know it's a very low number. Ellie is being very mum about order statuses when I inquired. From posts here we know people in 54xx order #s are getting their orders and many of us in 7xxx order numbers.. Does that mean we are 2-3 years away from getting our knives that we paid in FULL our hard earned money?
A little openness would go a long way...

Sounds like the 4.7 CruV would be a "30-day" product then. And any e-mail/newsletter/etc. to customers indicating a delay complies with this "rule". *shrug*

Seiferds need more people in the shop to help with inventory. When you have over 1000 knives that need processing (to go by some of those production photos), you need more people working on them. Again, Randall craftsmen put out 1 blade per person per day and are consistently behind by some 36,000 knives, but they've been at this for generations and have very specific limitations on new orders. Guy just let in too many pre-orders and for too many models, and now he has folk like Mark here bad-mouthing him all over the internet. *shrug* Nathan Carothers does mostly in-house work, was willing to open a pre-order for his Field Knife after customer demand, but limited it to just 40 knives, and he does still make and sell other models on a weekly basis... 40 knives equated to "several months" for him and Jo all alone. Guy needs to be closer to 40 knives per day with his list :eek:. But in truth, I have no idea how many S!K ships out each day, nor how many knives are in each of those >10,000 orders.
 
That is exactly what upsets me. Guy knows how many knives he produces a day (yes, we are aware of unforeseen circumstances, vacations, etc) and I know it's a very low number. Ellie is being very mum about order statuses when I inquired. From posts here we know people in 54xx order #s are getting their orders and many of us in 7xxx order numbers.. Does that mean we are 2-3 years away from getting our knives that we paid in FULL our hard earned money?
A little openness would go a long way...

Order#s relate only to WHEN you ordered in sequence, they do not mention WHAT you ordered and if it was a pre-order or factory second, etc. I have an order in the 4XXXs and another later down the line because I ended up ordering something else besides my initial order, BUT both were for pre-orders = no guaranteed delivery date. I already received the GSO-5.1 pre-order, took ~6 months of production-time altogether. I am waiting on a GSO-4.7 that has been a little more than 1 year in production, also from the 4XXX order, but later orders (Monday sale factory seconds and the like) have already been fulfilled. Next in line is my GSO-4.1 pre-order which will be fulfilled in due time but probably not before other factory seconds and Ugly Bettys ship to customers who have later orders.

It is about WHAT you ordered before WHEN you ordered. If you pre-ordered a model with no guaranteed delivery date and the production schedule shows it well back in line (most have been taking ~1 year to go from steel-being-cut to in-your-hand), then you will have a long wait ahead of you. But if your order corresponds to something near the front of the line (maybe even already in the shop and just needs to be sharpened and built, like a CruV 4.7) then the wait will be much less - right now they are citing 1-month or less on those.

It looks like everything already cut from the steel-sheet is either in-house or en-route, and that includes all the 4.7 variations remaining to ship, GSO-2.7s, GSO-4.1s that are in process, and the GSO-7/7s arriving soon. Survive! seems to have put the breaks on the 3.5 until the back-log is ameliorated, and they have hired two employees recently (Jordyn and another) to assist with that, so there are now maybe FIVE people working on those thousand+ knives in the shop (there appear to be >1000 GSO-4.1s alone). Also, those same 5 people are the only ones able to answer phone calls and e-mails, which takes them away from building/sharpening/shipping. They need to hire more people, they are just very picky about quality of the product and so need people with specific strengths to help them... There's an old saying about, "good help is hard to find"?

Summation - if you put your hard earned money down on a knife that hasn't even started production (e.g. the GSO-10 or GSO-8), I would be amazed if you got a shipping notice before 2017 Christmas (fingers-crossed that i am wrong) regardless of the order#; whereas if you ordered a CruV 4.7 off a Monday sale, i would be surprised if you didn't have it in-hand before Thanksgiving or sooner (depending on when you ordered).


Ellie being "mum" doesn't surprise me, this topic (production delays) has become very contentious.
 
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Just to add another data point to this whole topic (since the notion of frictionless refunds on preorders has come up a few times), I decided to cancel my 4.1 on account of realizing how similar it was in size to the 4.7 CFV I ordered later on a Monday sale. I'm a few days into asking them repeatedly to process the refund, and it hasn't happened yet, though was told a couple of days ago that it'd happen.

Hoping it's just admin backlog? Curious to see if refunds are as forthcoming as has been rumored.
 
Firstly, I apologize for the delay in making a statement over here. This has gone through a few revisions in an effort to avoid tl:dr, especially since most of these topics have been discussed a few times already.

Availability
This is a simple supply and demand issue. We cannot supply the knives fast enough to satiate current demand. In order to help increase our supply, we offer prepaid preordering which allows us to invest in larger production runs. If there is any question about how many knives we actually produce, I would encourage people to check out @SurviveKnives on Instagram to see pictures of each production run.

While Guy did initially give out knives to a few reviewers back in 2013, we have not done anything to try and increase our demand since then. We do not attend shows, give knives away in exchange for good reviews, pay for advertising, or whatever else companies do to boost demand. We’ve been doing our best to hide under a rock as we try to catch up on things.

Wait times
This is where I bring up the old adage: Good, Fast, Cheap, pick two. We picked Good and Cheap. It is very important to us to QC at every step to make sure everything is the best it can be along the way. There is a lot of time spent hand finishing each order and we will not do something simply because it is faster or easier. We do not believe in cutting corners. Guy is working on training someone to help him out in the workshop so you will see an increase in speediness once he gives the thumbs up.

Even so, we expect demand to continue to rise so there will likely always be some wait for the GSO knives. As a solution, we plan to introduce the SK Series to satiate the folks who are more in the Fast and Cheap market. Those blades will still be quality materials and designs, but they will not go through the slower hand finishing steps we do for the GSO knives.

Complicated ordering process
It is unconventional right now and I believe I’ve apologized for that a few times. But with limited availability, there isn’t an easy fix. Solving the above issues will solve this issue. In the meantime, we do our best to keep folks as informed as possible. We have the How to Buy page, FAQ, Production Schedule, and a Monthly Newsletter. We are also always happy to answer questions and concerns via email, phone, or any of the social media accounts.

Missed delivery dates
I know this has not been our strongest area historically, and I apologize for the frustrations there. Because the production process has so many variables we decided to go with the no guaranteed delivery date and figured people would take that in to consideration before placing a preorder. With the Monday sales the 5-day promise was a bit optimistic, especially with the amount of hand finishing that has been required. The 15-day quote was going well for a bit, but we have fallen behind that with the July orders. Guy should have the reworking done for those over the weekend and we are expecting to be back on track by the end of next week. We are currently changing the way we do things in the workshop so that we can tend to any fitment issues before the blades are sharpened. Guy is also delayed slightly right now due to training.

For other ordering, we do our best to provide as accurate of an estimate as we can, given the current circumstances. Unfortunately, things come up and cause delays. There is a lot involved in setting up product pages with this system and a lot involved in getting orders fulfilled so mistakes do happen from time to time. We will do our best to be more careful when listing knives to minimize confusion. We are also looking into ways to improve communication on the various information pages on our website.

Charging for full payment up front
I noticed some mention about funding from banks rather than customers. If anyone here has tried to get a bank loan with a newer business since 2008 they will know that it isn’t easy. Most banks want to see 3 years of positive revenue before even starting to look at your application. SURVIVE! officially opened as a business in 2012. The only full run really made that year was the GSO-10, which sold for $180. I think you can all figure out that it wasn’t exactly a high profit year for the then garage based business. Guy knew 2013 was going to be different so he brought in a business partner who he trusted to manage the finances and other business aspects. When Guy realized that SURVIVE! had been paying a slew of “employees” (more like friends and family) who spent most of their time working on the partners’ other business entity he began questioning his decision to bring him on and eventually the partnership was dissolved. As a result, the books at the end of 2013 didn’t leave much to be desired. 2014 was better but that was before we really started selling Factory 2nds so we still had a high proportion of loss. So by the time we were even old enough to consider bank financing, we were still not eligible for it. That didn’t change the fact that customers were banging down the doors asking us to take their order. We knew we needed to grow substantially, so we decided to go the same route as many other young companies: crowdfunding.

Why full payment and not a partial deposit? There is the obvious answer: more money = more growth = more knives going out to happy customers. The actual reason though, is that it allows us to fulfill orders faster. It means I can be in the workshop, rather than in the office trying to get ahold of people for their payment information (We do not hold on to customers’ credit card details because of how sensitive that information is).

“Production” - “Custom” - “Craft”
When Guy completed his first drawing at the very end of 2010 his plan was to simply be a knife designer. Over the next couple of years, he figured out that trying to realize his designs through another knife company just wasn’t going to work. We’ll skip the gory details. In the end, Guy decided the best approach would be to seek out individual contract manufacturers who excel at specific heavy machining processes. Through those first years, he lost a lot of time and money in his search for companies to work with, but it paid off as we believe we currently work with some of the best people in the industry.

Yes, we use other companies to do the heavy machining and we have never hidden that fact. Many, MANY knife companies out there operate under the same model. Smaller companies and start-ups can’t justify millions of dollars worth of machines to do everything in house. A host of well-established medium to large companies have good relationships with their contractors and never bother making the investment in their own machines, instead focusing on finishing processes. Even many “custom” makers who produce only a few hundred pieces a year rely on contract manufacturers to have their blades cut and sometimes partially machined to save time with hand work and to improve consistency.

The difference is in what happens to the blade during the finishing steps. In the SURVIVE! workshop we take the extra time to look closely at each and every knife to make sure those final processes are being done well. We care about all aspects of the blade, how the handles and sheaths fit, and especially the edge. If something isn’t right, it gets fixed or added to the Factory 2nd pile. Most of the finishing is currently being done by one person. We are working on getting another person trained on some of those tasks, which will help speed things up considerably. Don’t worry, the trainee also has really high standards.

In closing:
SURVIVE! has officially been in business for 4 years. We did not own businesses before this. Guy is just a person following a dream. Have we made mistakes? Definitely. Since no one has figured out a time machine yet, we can’t change the past. The important thing is that we learn from those mistakes and we adapt. When we say SURVIVE! is an innovative company we aren’t talking about only the knife designs. We are always looking for better ways to do production, sales, customer service, and everything else. I can promise that we will never again: sell GSO-10s for under $200, or trust an outsider with the money, or underestimate how much demand may have grown, or offer unlimited preordering. We will: hire as needed, maintain our quality standards, and continue doing the best we can to make everyone happy (even though we know that probably isn’t possible).
 
Really?
30 were given away... 1 in the review here..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2npIMEsjTo8


Availability

While Guy did initially give out knives to a few reviewers back in 2013, we have not done anything to try and increase our demand since then. We do not attend shows, give knives away in exchange for good reviews, pay for advertising, or whatever else companies do to boost demand. We’ve been doing our best to hide under a rock as we try to catch up on things.
 
True. A knife was given and a positive review was made.

In this case, though, the 30 knives sent out were sent to long time supporters of the company and this supporter happens to be a youtube reviewer so he made the review. It's a good knife so the review was positive :)

IIRC those 30 were also prototypes in need of some end-user feedback on the new steel. This is the CruForge V models, correct? It was a long time before the steel type was even announced.
 
Indeed - great guy and channel!


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Right on, my man. One of my favorites. If you go back and look at his older videos, he's done quite a few reviews on GSO's and unless a review was done in 2013, I think he bought the knives like any other customer.

IIRC those 30 were also prototypes in need of some end-user feedback on the new steel. This is the CruForge V models, correct? It was a long time before the steel type was even announced.
Yes! I forgot to mention those gifted 4.7's were part of the unbiased testing project to get input on the (at the time mystery) steel.


Ellie, thanks as always for the detailed and polite response :thumbup::thumbup:
 
Thanks Ellie!
What do you think about creating a new thread, putting post #132 into it, and then locking it and making it a sticky?
I think that you've done a remarkably good job of addressing the issues.
 
Thanks Ellie!
What do you think about creating a new thread, putting post #132 into it, and then locking it and making it a sticky?
I think that you've done a remarkably good job of addressing the issues.

I second :thumbup:

Chiral brought up some good points in this thread as well.
 
I'm not trying to take anything away from supportive comments that others have made, but Ellie's comments are official Survive policy.
 
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