Explanation Please

I certainly don't want to belabor the point of this thread, but I was reacquainting myself with one of my older Cold Steel folders today and I noticed an attribute that I thought might be germane to our conversation here.

image.jpg1_zps87orwdn0.jpg~original



Anybody remember how many companies used the integrated plastic pocket clip without paying Spyderco for doing so or even acknowledging Spyderco's ownership of the patent? Plenty.

For those who may be under the mistaken impression that Cold Steel only plays by the rules that benefit Cold Steel, you might want to review some knife history before drawing your conclusions. The company has been very diligent with its attributions over the years. A quick perusal of old catalogs will demonstrate this clearly (random samples shown; there are many, many more extant).

From the 2005 catalog:

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From the 2015 catalog (two years after Mr. Boguszewski's death):

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From the 2016 catalog:

image.jpg1_zps2w2fjzot.jpg~original



Yes, Cold Steel has scrupulously pursued trademarks and patents on as many proprietary knife names, developments, and components as it has been able to acquire over the years. That's good business practice. And it has protected those properties, sometimes zealously. Spyderco did the same thing with the trademark on its Round Hole, which was being used without attribution or licensing fees by several prominent knife companies. That's also good business practice!

I just don't understand why so many people are so incensed over this issue. I think it has more to do with the fact that it's Cold Steel doing it than it does with the action itself. If these makers received the same letter from Gerber, I doubt there would be nearly as much uproar.

That bias, incidentally, only strengthens my admiration for Cold Steel. People in this thread have tried to paint a David-versus-Goliath scenario. I find that laughable. Cold Steel has been an underdog in the knife industry since the company's inception. Just ask any custom maker who has received even a single paragraph of mention in Blade magazine to find comparable coverage of a Cold Steel knife. Remind me again, who's David and who's Goliath?

-Steve
 
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I certainly don't want to belabor the point of this thread, but I was reacquainting myself with one of my older Cold Steel folders today and I noticed an attribute that I thought might be germane to our conversation here.

image.jpg1_zps87orwdn0.jpg



Anybody remember how many companies used the integrated plastic pocket clip without paying Spyderco for doing so or even acknowledging Spyderco's ownership of the patent? Plenty.

For those who may be under the mistaken impression that Cold Steel only plays by the rules that benefit Cold Steel, you might want to review some knife history before drawing your conclusions. The company has been very diligent with its attributions over the years. A quick perusal of old catalogs will demonstrate this clearly (random samples shown; there are many, many more extant).

From the 2005 catalog:

image.jpg3_zps4mjnvzpx.jpg



From the 2015 catalog (two years after Mr. Boguszewski's death):

image.jpg2_zps03blrd50.jpg



From the 2016 catalog:

image.jpg1_zps2w2fjzot.jpg



Yes, Cold Steel has scrupulously pursued trademarks and patents on as many proprietary knife names, developments, and components as it has been able to acquire over the years. That's good business practice. And it has protected those properties, sometimes zealously. Spyderco did the same thing with the trademark on its Round Hole, which was being used without attribution or licensing fees by several prominent knife companies. That's also good business practice!

I just don't understand why so many people are so incensed over this issue. I think it has more to do with the fact that it's Cold Steel doing it than it does with the action itself. If these makers received the same letter from Gerber, I doubt there would be nearly as much uproar.

That bias, incidentally, only strengthens my admiration for Cold Steel. People in this thread have tried to paint a David-versus-Goliath scenario. I find that laughable. Cold Steel has been an underdog in the knife industry since the company's inception. Just ask any custom maker who has received even a single paragraph of mention in Blade magazine to find comparable coverage of a Cold Steel knife. Remind me again, who's David and who's Goliath?

-Steve

Great post, thanks for sharing this. This needs to get more visibility.
 
The Whip... You have completely missed the point of contention between knifemakers and Cold Steel.

I will try to explain it with an analogy. The Japanese name/word for the upward curvature of a blade is "Sori". Nobody can trademark that term because it has been used for hundreds of years in many countries around the World. However, there is a way you can use the word IN a trademark. You can add something to make it stand out from the generic term. Perhaps, by putting a curved line or character after the word... like "SORI )". Your trademark would be for the word and the curved line together. It could never be for the word alone. It is my understanding that Cold Steel has made a claim to the generic term "san mai" when all three of their registered trademarks clearly indicate the three lines/numerals that accompany the words. In fact, the registration expressly states that Cold Steel does not claim the exclusive rights to the words "san mai" used apart from the described mark.

It would be like MacDonalds going after any restaurant that has "quarter pound" in the description of a hamburger. The registered trademark MacDonalds holds is for "quarter pounder" ... the "er" being the defining attribute that separates it from the generic term.

Since, Cold Steel has yet to directly address the issue, aside from citing the three registered trademarks, I can only conclude that there is a problem. I see that they use the mark SAN MAI® and am still confused as to how.


It is regrettable that Cold Steel has pulled out of BladeShow this year. I own and use several of their tomahawks.



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"cold steel
Definitions
the use of bayonets, knives, etc, in combat"

"cold steel
noun
1.
a weapon made of steel, as a sword."

"Definition of cold steel
: a steel weapon (as a sword or bayonet)"

"'Cold steel', a modern alternative to the phrase "cold iron" meaning any weapon designed to draw blood, see Iron in folklore."
 
The Whip... You have completely missed the point of contention between knifemakers and Cold Steel.

No, I haven't missed your point, Rick. I understand exactly what you and several others have posited. But yours is not the only point of contention being raised within this thread, and I was rather addressing the insidious motivations being ascribed to Lynn Thompson baselessly, as though he's some knife-industry version of a dispassionate corporate raider using legal trickery to destroy all the "little guys" who stand in the way of his Cold Steel juggernaut. Such depictions are farsical, and wholly inaccurate based on what little I know of Lynn Thompson, Cold Steel, and the larger knife community.


I see that they use the mark SAN MAI® and am still confused as to how.

Yes. That was a peripheral point that I was making. As meticulous as Cold Steel has been with its treatments of patents and trademarks in the past, do you really think the company would send out letters like that if it wasn't certain of its stance? Maybe you and others are correct and they don't have a legal leg to stand on. But I doubt it.

You know who likes to debate these kinds of issues? Lawyers. In fact, they get paid a lot of money to work these things out. I'm not a lawyer, just a guy who likes talking about knives, particularly Cold Steel knives.


It is regrettable that Cold Steel has pulled out of BladeShow this year.

Have they? I didn't know. That's too bad, but it wouldn't be the first time, and it probably won't be the last. As I alluded to in my post above, Blade (both the magazine and the show) hasn't exactly been good to Cold Steel over the years.


I own and use several of their tomahawks.

You should try their knives. I hear they're pretty good....

-Steve
 
Whip, your statement is based on faith in Cold Steel, not facts. There is no record of Cold Steel having a trademark of "SAN MAi" (or "san mai") without the three marks, horizontal and curving or vertical and straight, following SAN MAi. You might find reading this thread informative. Skip the invective if it makes you feel better.

https://trademarks.justia.com/774/55/san-mai-77455749.html "Description of Mark [by Cold Steel] The mark consists of the words "SAN MAI" followed by three horizontal wavy lines."

https://trademarks.justia.com/774/55/san-mai-iii-77455291.html "Word MarkSAN MAI III"

From Cold Steel site: "Name: SRK San Mai III®"
 
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I just don't understand why so many people are so incensed over this issue. I think it has more to do with the fact that it's Cold Steel doing it than it does with the action itself. If these makers received the same letter from Gerber, I doubt there would be nearly as much uproar.

People are incensed over the issue because Cold Steel is going after custom knife makers for using a term that Cold Steel DOESN'T F*CKING HAVE TRADEMARKED. In other words, they're claiming exclusive rights to something they DO NOT HAVE RIGHTS TO, which is blatantly dishonest and a total scumbag move that only a dick would go along with. And Lynn went right along with it.

To illustrate exactly what is going on here, suppose I designed some knife and called it the Knife3. I could trademark the term, and nobody else could use it. But I could NOT go after someone for using the term "Knife" cause that is NOT what I have trademarkers, JUST as Cold Steel doesn't have the term "san mai" trademarked, only the San Mai 3.
 
This whole issue is nothing but a tempest in a teapot. Lynn's explanation is perfectly reasonable and the resolution couldn't be simpler. Using the term "san mai" to sell your knives? Stop doing so and come up with something else. Feel you're entitled to use the term without Cold Steel's consent? Hire a lawyer and take your best shot at making your case.

You know who likes to debate these kinds of issues? Lawyers. In fact, they get paid a lot of money to work these things out. I'm not a lawyer, just a guy who likes talking about knives, particularly Cold Steel knives.

You know, in the Cold Steel Knives subforum and all....

As for invective, it gets old. I was incredibly revolted by the antics of Mickey Ray Burger and Dwayne Dwyer. But nothing runs me out of a Strider thread faster than the inevitable posts of those who want to make every single Strider topic about Mick and Dwayne. It's not original, it's not insightful, it's not interesting. I find hero worship and character assassination equally off-putting.

-Steve
 
Physician, heal thyself. I realized that 1) I haven't been talking much about knives lately, and 2) This thread is lacking good photos.

How about some San Mai magnificence? If the San Mai Natchez is truly on its way to extinction, I'm going to lament the loss of this beauty!

image.jpg1_zpseoddudcw.jpg~original



-Steve
 
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I'm soooo tired of the whining about this. There are a few particular individuals who can't seem to let it go. The minute someone's out some money, please let us know, otherwise, it's getting quite old.
 
Nice-looking knife, Whip. Somehow one never made it into my Cold Steel family.

My first was a Shinobu. Nearly died getting it sharp; that center layer was super abrasion-resistant. Dished out a "crock stick" in the process. What a difference with the new Ultimate Hunter.


If we exclude any reference whatsoever to Cold Steel, there are 560,00 hits in the web that relate to san mai/SAN MAi steel or blades. 467,000 hits relate to san mai/SNA MAi and cold steel. Those facts alone would make it tough to get san mai or SAN MAi trademarked should Cold Steel ever try.
 
People are incensed over the issue because Cold Steel is going after custom knife makers for using a term that Cold Steel DOESN'T F*CKING HAVE TRADEMARKED.

And why would they be incensed over that issue? If the maker is correct in his interpretation, then all he has to do is send a letter back saying exactly that.

The government is not going to enforce a trademark that does not exist; so if the maker is correct, then there is no problem, and no reason to be incensed.
 
When one gets a cease letter it sometimes requires one to hire a lawyer and that costs big bucks. Its legal bullying. As usually one who doesnt have the cash flow to hire a lawyer to deal with legal bullying just gives in whether right or wrong. Thats what makes folks mad. Bigger cash company legal bullying a smaller maker over a silly issue.
 
When one gets a cease letter it sometimes requires one to hire a lawyer and that costs big bucks. Its legal bullying. As usually one who doesnt have the cash flow to hire a lawyer to deal with legal bullying just gives in whether right or wrong. Thats what makes folks mad. Bigger cash company legal bullying a smaller maker over a silly issue.

This may apply if people do not have the confidence in their position; but the fact is, if you present your case as people here have done - and I'm assuming that we don't have a nest of lawyers posting in this thread - it won't go beyond the letter. Heck, if you don't want to do research, then send an initial reply along the lines of "My apologies, Mr. Thompson; we were not aware of your trademarks. Could you please supply the infringed trademark so that we may verify infringement and consider some options for change, blah, blah, blah.....". You can do the same letter writing delaying tactics that lawyers do. Keep records, and you shouldn't have a problem with the court.

What happened here? People easily found the trademarks, right? Plain English, easy to read, easy to spot the money phrase about how the trademark does not claim use of the phrase by itself........so why even need a lawyer at all? Those guys word their garbage for the express purpose of scaring people into submission. If you have no reason to be scared, then call their bluff. They know they have no case; and they'll stop once they realize you won't be moved. Consider a harassment countersuit if it doesn't stop.

The key thing here is to be correct; and that the juice is worth the squeeze. If you don't want to go through the hassle, then ask yourself what value you really place in using a particular phrase? On what little hill are you planting your flag? People in all walks of life go through a thousand and one petty little torments every day; so framing a situation like this into "big guy vs little guy" corporate bullying is a little melodramatic.
 
No, I haven't missed your point, Rick. I understand exactly what you and several others have posited. But yours is not the only point of contention being raised within this thread, and I was rather addressing the insidious motivations being ascribed to Lynn Thompson baselessly, as though he's some knife-industry version of a dispassionate corporate raider using legal trickery to destroy all the "little guys" who stand in the way of his Cold Steel juggernaut. Such depictions are farsical, and wholly inaccurate based on what little I know of Lynn Thompson, Cold Steel, and the larger knife community.
Lynn has rubbed many folks the wrong way. I agree, that most are basing their opinions on hearsay... I try not to do this. Point taken.

Yes. That was a peripheral point that I was making. As meticulous as Cold Steel has been with its treatments of patents and trademarks in the past, do you really think the company would send out letters like that if it wasn't certain of its stance? Maybe you and others are correct and they don't have a legal leg to stand on. But I doubt it.
That is why we are asking questions.
You know who likes to debate these kinds of issues? Lawyers. In fact, they get paid a lot of money to work these things out. I'm not a lawyer, just a guy who likes talking about knives, particularly Cold Steel knives.
Do you expect everyone who got the letter to hire a lawyer BEFORE asking simple questions?
Have they? I didn't know. That's too bad, but it wouldn't be the first time, and it probably won't be the last. As I alluded to in my post above, Blade (both the magazine and the show) hasn't exactly been good to Cold Steel over the years.
Cold Steel have done very well for themselves. They are a controversial company but I think it often works in their favor. They seem to embrace it. Busse is the same way. The right amount of controversy can be just the thing you need in today's market. I don't think Cold Steel would agree that they are underdogs in the industry. Just read the home page on the website.
You should try their knives. I hear they're pretty good....
I have several of CS's knives as well. I just don't use them anymore, so I didn't want to pretend that I did. They are good knives for the price point.

I'm sorry that I didn't address the animosity against Lynn and CS outside the intended topic of this thread. We can get caught up in poking fun at folks and lose track of the issue. I am guilty, myself. My response to you was purely about the alleged trademark infringement and the request for clarification of the registration.
 
Why should someone be incensed over a big kid picking on a smaller one? Same issue.

No it isn't. The power difference is imaginary in the business scenario. The big company can't "pick on" the smaller without the help of the court system, which the big company is not going to get if they are incorrect about the issue.

We've spent too long letting ourselves be intimidated by a lawyer's letter. Yes, by all means, change the system to take away their false power; because they are a blight....but that's a different subject. We are talking about what REAL power the letter carries.

In this case, if the smaller company is correct, they should simply point that out and decline to acquiesce. What is the larger company going to do?
 
This may apply if people do not have the confidence in their position; but the fact is, if you present your case as people here have done - and I'm assuming that we don't have a nest of lawyers posting in this thread - it won't go beyond the letter. Heck, if you don't want to do research, then send an initial reply along the lines of "My apologies, Mr. Thompson; we were not aware of your trademarks. Could you please supply the infringed trademark so that we may verify infringement and consider some options for change, blah, blah, blah.....". You can do the same letter writing delaying tactics that lawyers do. Keep records, and you shouldn't have a problem with the court.

What happened here? People easily found the trademarks, right? Plain English, easy to read, easy to spot the money phrase about how the trademark does not claim use of the phrase by itself........so why even need a lawyer at all? Those guys word their garbage for the express purpose of scaring people into submission. If you have no reason to be scared, then call their bluff. They know they have no case; and they'll stop once they realize you won't be moved. Consider a harassment countersuit if it doesn't stop.

The key thing here is to be correct; and that the juice is worth the squeeze. If you don't want to go through the hassle, then ask yourself what value you really place in using a particular phrase? On what little hill are you planting your flag? People in all walks of life go through a thousand and one petty little torments every day; so framing a situation like this into "big guy vs little guy" corporate bullying is a little melodramatic.

Confidence in the rightness of your legal position is no substitute for a lawyer when the other side has one (or more).

There used to be a custom maker called Razorback Knives. Then along came the University of Arkansas' lawyers with the absurd position that the public buying U of A stuff would confuse this guy's knives with U of A stuff - hoodies, plastic hog heads, and the like. The maker gave up - just didn't have the bucks to take on the heavyweight. When your making knives, $400/hour is rarely in the budget. Then there's Ontario's hijacking of the "RAT" trademark - becasue it could. No melodrama. Just facts. Well discussed on BF when it happened months ago.

So what's your point? The facts are clear but should be ignored?

Ed, for those who forgot or never knew:
Randall's Adventure & Training

Well, Nick Trbovich Jr., CEO of Ontario just called me right after I posted this. They do have letters headed our way from their attorneys. What Nick told me on the phone is he wanted us to quit using the name RAT Cutlery and basically design for them since they had "so much time" invested in us. I thought we were going to be able to reach an agreement on the phone without having lawyers get involved but when he said we had to quit using the name RAT Cutlery, I told him no way. We have been known as RAT since our beginnings in 1997. I asked him how he felt going after a small company like this and he told me that he had to worry about his stock holders and employees. I'm pissed right now. I friggin' can't believe that a huge company like Ontario is going to sue a little piss-ant company like RAT Cutlery just when it's getting started. There is no way RAT Cutlery has the funding to defend against a long, drawn-out court battle such as this may be. Nick knows that and knows he can crush us with such frivolous suits.
...
What I really need right now is someone who can offer me some legal advice. Being the southern redneck that I am, I just take people on the word and a handshake and never get attorneys involved. That's stupid on my part. The sad part is Ontario will continue to use our name, logo, likeness and the whole nine yards on the Ontario RAT line while they're suing us. If I wasn't so damn mad I would be laughing at this whole mess because I couldn't dream up stuff so twisted.

Per Mr. Randall, Randall Adventure had licensed the mark "RAT" to Ontario. The agreement expired.
 
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