Explanation Please

[bflying]

Well said Thomas. I also think many who read these threads sometimes confuse Trademark's with a Utility Patent or Design Patent. All three are VERY different from one another. This is a branding issue trying to overshadow form/function/material or manufacturing methods.

I've seen some here try to compare this issue with other companies, often not even with the trademark as the basis. But the best example I can think of would be with the company "Staples". They cannot tell anyone else (even in the office supply industry), to stop using the word "staples" (with or without cap), unless someone tries one of two things. If I try to simply call my office supply company "Staples". Or if I insert the filed trademark logo in place of the word "staples" in advertising.

(ie. Shop our store for all your

.)

But I can say I make Staples. Use Staples. Sell Staples. Staples for every brand of Stapler. Staples for Swingline. Staples for Acco. Staples for PaperPro. Ok, I've run out of items on my desk....anyway. I can even say....These Staples are comparable to Staples(r) Brand of Staples. And I would think these guys wield a little bigger stick than CS.

 

[jlauffer]

The example I thought of was Coca Cola...those 2 words together are a trademark, but they don't have rights to the word "cola" by itself.

 

[jbmonkey]

This may apply if people do not have the confidence in their position; but the fact is, if you present your case as people here have done - and I'm assuming that we don't have a nest of lawyers posting in this thread - it won't go beyond the letter. Heck, if you don't want to do research, then send an initial reply along the lines of "My apologies, Mr. Thompson; we were not aware of your trademarks. Could you please supply the infringed trademark so that we may verify infringement and consider some options for change, blah, blah, blah.....". You can do the same letter writing delaying tactics that lawyers do. Keep records, and you shouldn't have a problem with the court.

What happened here? People easily found the trademarks, right? Plain English, easy to read, easy to spot the money phrase about how the trademark does not claim use of the phrase by itself........so why even need a lawyer at all? Those guys word their garbage for the express purpose of scaring people into submission. If you have no reason to be scared, then call their bluff. They know they have no case; and they'll stop once they realize you won't be moved. Consider a harassment countersuit if it doesn't stop.

The key thing here is to be correct; and that the juice is worth the squeeze. If you don't want to go through the hassle, then ask yourself what value you really place in using a particular phrase? On what little hill are you planting your flag? People in all walks of life go through a thousand and one petty little torments every day; so framing a situation like this into "big guy vs little guy" corporate bullying is a little melodramatic.

sure, if it stops with the letter. if you get any legal action, then you can't just ignore it or fight back on your own. crkt got served after their letter. who knows what will happen with this? guess we'll find out.

 

[Thomas Linton]

The overriding policy behind trademark law is to prevent unfair competition resulting from misleading buyers of goods about the source of the goods they buy.

Likelihood of customer confusion about the source of the goods in question is one test of whether a mark is misleading.

So who would be confused as to the source of this knife, advertised as a San Mai bowie:

 

[insta9ves]

The overriding policy behind trademark law is to prevent unfair competition resulting from misleading buyers of goods about the source of the goods they buy.

Likelihood of customer confusion about the source of the goods in question is one test of whether a mark is misleading.

So who would be confused as to the source of this knife, advertised as a San Mai bowie:

You are in a knife forums. But if just started this hoby and i dont know anything about Cold Steel other than their San Mai, i may just think that this is from CS. I don't own many fixed blade and to me, anyone could have produced something that look like that.

 

[Thomas Linton]

You are in a knife forums. But if just started this hoby and i dont know anything about Cold Steel other than their San Mai, i may just think that this is from CS. I don't own many fixed blade and to me, anyone could have produced something that look like that.

Even with Steve Randall's name on the ricasso, no "SAN MAi," and no "Cold Steel"? I suppose anything's possible.

I assure you that not "anyone" could have produced the knife shown.

 

[Danke42]

Even with Steve Randall's name on the ricasso, no "SAN MAi," and no "Cold Steel"? I suppose anything's possible.

I assure you that not "anyone" could have produced the knife shown.

I can totally envision myself spending $1000.00 for that blade and then feeling taken advantage of when I found out it wasn't a genuine Cold Steel San Mai.

Everyone else in Mall Security would have a field day with that kind of mistake.

 

[jbmonkey]

You are in a knife forums. But if just started this hoby and i dont know anything about Cold Steel other than their San Mai, i may just think that this is from CS. I don't own many fixed blade and to me, anyone could have produced something that look like that.

naw, not at those price points. think about it. non knife people ain't buying knives this expensive, and the rare few that do.....it wouldnt really translate to much if any lost dollars.

 

[BlackKnight86]

Confidence in the rightness of your legal position is no substitute for a lawyer when the other side has one (or more).

There used to be a custom maker called Razorback Knives. Then along came the University of Arkansas' lawyers with the absurd position that the public buying U of A stuff would confuse this guy's knives with U of A stuff - hoodies, plastic hog heads, and the like. The maker gave up - just didn't have the bucks to take on the heavyweight. When your making knives, $400/hour is rarely in the budget. Then there's Ontario's hijacking of the "RAT" trademark - becasue it could. No melodrama. Just facts. Well discussed on BF when it happened months ago.

So what's your point? The facts are clear but should be ignored?

Ed, for those who forgot or never knew:


Per Mr. Randall, Randall Adventure had licensed the mark "RAT" to Ontario. The agreement expired.

One does not need a lawyer to file a suit, only the know-how. If you get served a lawsuit (or even the threat of one), file a countersuit along with your evident and ask for attorney fees. File a motion to dismiss. Again....if your position is correct, then you don't need to worry about the other company's "power".

 

[BlackKnight86]

sure, if it stops with the letter. if you get any legal action, then you can't just ignore it or fight back on your own. crkt got served after their letter. who knows what will happen with this? guess we'll find out.

If this is as big an issue as some may believe, then why are there not knife community equivalents of the ACLU fighting against something this damaging?

I was at a gun show, and this guy had a table full of knives. He kept talking about how they were "Solingen" steel, pointing out the word on the blade....of course, they were also $5 each. I picked up a knife and examined it: the word was "SCLINGEN"....you could barely see the missing small section of what was intended to look like an "O".

Point is, people will sell their own mothers' skin if they think it'll make them an extra buck. It's possible to get around a trademark without actually violating anything...I've seen plenty of them. Yeah, some companies are pretty aggressive about protecting their intellectual property. Yeah, there are abuses. But look at the situation here:

1) The letter that was posted was a copy from the Cold Steel website. This question was asked: has anyone actually received a letter?

Has anyone bothered to answer the question? Do we have an actual issue that we can examine?

2) Where are the pictures of the alleged trademark violation? It's impossible to comment knowingly without seeing them. Were any posted?

3) Was ANY response given to Cold Steel, or did the person merely come onto Bladeforums looking to "recruit" allies? Because that's what my read of the OP felt like.

 

[Thomas Linton]

One does not need a lawyer to file a suit, only the know-how. If you get served a lawsuit (or even the threat of one), file a countersuit along with your evident and ask for attorney fees. File a motion to dismiss. Again....if your position is correct, then you don't need to worry about the other company's "power".

Sure you can represent yourself, mostly, so long as you are actually representing yourself and not an artificial entity. That's why Randal Adventure needed a lawyer. The only human being who can represent them is a lawyer admitted to practice in the court of competent jurisdiction. (Notice that SOG's layers sued Cold Steel over the marks "San Mai" and the two registered SAN MAi marks in the wrong court and, thus, saw the case dismissed.)

As for people who represent themselves pro per, one hopes the case is not about anything important to them. The correctness of your position is neither here nor there unless you file the right papers, at the right time, citing the right authorities.

Few actually have the "know-how,"even when one counts attorneys at law. The "know-how" involves searching millions of pages of court decisions, rules, and written laws to find the applicable language, which is written, one suspects, not to be understood by the untrained. The untrained usually only think they know enough. The courts are prohibited from counseling pro per litigants on the procedural or substantive provisions of the law applicable to the case at bar.

For example, many confuse copyright, trademark and patent law. If CS wished to sue some low-life for making knives that look a whole lot like the Trail Master (one of my favorite CS family members) but are marked with another brand, CS would have to prove, among other things, that the knockoffs are being made within the 17 - 20 year life of any design patent CS registered and continuously defended. As the Trail Master is a classic bowie, I doubt that CS even tried to secure a design patent over thirty years ago when they brought out that great beast of a knife - nothing legally unique - except maybe the handle, and you know about the handle. Maybe you can find a CS patent registration. The knockoffs are not marked as CS products, so no trademark issue. Not about writing so no copyright issue.

It's like making your first knife. Start with old files and saw blades rather than $600 worth of super Damascus. You will probably be happier.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Unfortunately, justice is not always about right or wrong, correct or false. It is about how well you can communicate within the language of the law. The judge may very well think that the basis of your defense is right, but you have failed to properly represent your case. The court is not allowed to "translate" or "guide" your case to fit the legal-lingo.

I will agree that a well worded letter in response to CS is probably your best route. Apologize, but explain that you are unaware of where the infringement occurred. Ask for specific examples/evidence. The way Lynn has worded his letter puts the onus on YOU to find the infringement and take the necessary steps to rectify it. It is the responsibility of Cold Steel to present evidence of infringement.

It kinda reminds me of the time I played a joke on my kid, saying "The teacher called and told me what happened today.". I just wanted to mess with his head. Iinstead, I got a full confession about a "fist-fight over Yugioh cards" or something... I don't remember exactly because I was trying hard not to laugh.

 

[Glenn056]

Nope. They do not own the trademark San Mai or san.mai. Their trademark is ONLY SAN MAI with the 3 wavy lines or Roman numerals. Anyone can freely use San Mai or SAN MAI and Cold Steel can't do anything about it because that's not their trademark.

Haha thats not roman numerals thats 三 which is 3 in Chinese/Japanese (shared). Just saying

Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using Tapatalk

 

[skyhorse]

Unfortunately, justice is not always about right or wrong, correct or false.

You got that one right Rick.
[video=youtube;pPd67CEL54E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPd67CEL54E&list=PLg9alsLDdXGtaYqhzV8R26Mm2PqsQkprB[/video]

 

[Thomas Linton]

Haha thats not roman numerals thats 三 which is 3 in Chinese/Japanese (shared). Just saying

Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using Tapatalk

Let me try to help for those who have jumped in without plowing through 100+ posts.

CS has two trademarks that have been repeatedly discussed in this thread. One includes three in Japanese characters, - the three, horizontal "wavy" lines. The other mark is three parallel, vertical lines. Not really a Roman numeral (III), but close.


https://trademarks.justia.com/774/55...-77455749.html "Description of Mark [by Cold Steel] The mark consists of the words "SAN MAI" followed by three horizontal wavy lines."

https://trademarks.justia.com/774/55...-77455291.html "Word MarkSAN MAI III


Rick is right.

Judges tell juries that a trial is a search for the truth and not a contest of skill. When they say that, they are expressing an aspiration. Very often a trial is absolutely a contest of skill.