Extreme Judgement : just some spec's and a little splitting

Dalko said:
Oh! Thank you! :)

So, 3V is still being improved by Crucible!?! Great!

Why haven't they added Nickel, Nitrogen and Silicon for even higher toughness?

After all, Ni and Si are for a large part of the S7 and L6's toughness and N part of the INFI's toughness...
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For the record, S30V and 3V do contain nitrogen. So do H-1 and X15tn for that matter. IIRC the spec for S30V calls for up to 0.20% N and in practice around 0.10% is achieved.

As far as vanadium goes, it refines the grain and improves toughness. The extremely fine grain of 3V is a big reason for its outstanding toughness.
 
SteelDriver said:
As far as vanadium goes, it refines the grain and improves toughness. The extremely fine grain of 3V is a big reason for its outstanding toughness.
Click to expand...

3V doesn't have outstanding toughness compared to carbon steels. It is only a standout compared to high carbon stainless steels.

As for hard impacts, I chopped concrete this weekend. The edge chipped readily, in the visible, +half mm deep. Which I would expect given the performance on the knots.

Yes I have done it with INFI, many times, rocks, nails, etc., normally while limbing, splitting etc. . It happens. Pick up a piece of wood off the ground it will be covered in dirt. Cut a tree with deep bark and it is the same. Unless you wash everything you cut outside, and carefully check every shrub for underlying rocks and never glance a cut - the edge should get damaged on a regular basis. On INFI the edge will get mashed in or roll.

In regards to the Battle Rat in the above, the edge thickness isn't what is important but the edge angle. The edge angle isn't obtuse compared to other knives, in fact it is more acute than many customs. it didn't get damaged because the hardness is high enough to prevent flattening and soft enough to give it the necessary toughness.

This wasn't by chance, the knives were edge set at at a wide range and tested inbetween until the performance was reached. Then the spine was tested over a range until the required amount of flex and strength was obtained. This isn't a case of lets ask Crucible or let some heat treater decide. It is lets evaluate the cycles over a bunch of ranges and see what works best for what we want. A lot of time and a lot of broken blades later and a knife is born.

As for the performance of Busse's knives, it isn't simply because of the steel, it is because of the knowledge of the man. Busse would make a solid survival knife out of ATS-34 if he was asked, it however would *NOT* be the same geometry as his INFI blades as ATS-34 does not have the toughness nor flexibility so the shape would have to be adjusted to compensate.

The amount of R&D that he does is insane. The biggest difference between Busse and others can be seen by noting the responce I got on Knifeforums when I asked Hossom how his new line of knives could take an impact or flex. The thread went on for pages with lots of interesting character attacks and introspections, but absolutely *NO* information given about performance. Which quite frankly I expected, but I always give someone the benefit of the doubt.

Go to Busse and ask the same questions, well you don't need to because its on the web. But ask them something else and watch what happens. His knife designs are based on performance and thus questions on performance do not bother him because he knows the answer. He routinely flexes, impacts and generally lays into his knives with a lot of ass. And yes, they do rope cutting, 2x4 chopping besides.

-Cliff
 
You're right Cliff, I have no information to offer on chopping concrete or rocks. I also have no information on how production blades I've not yet had a chance to test myself would perform. I happily share information on performance in all the forums I frequent, but I (and a goodly number of other knifemakers) simply don't share that information with you. You're Busse bias is just too daunting.


I will say though on the subject of CPM-3V, the primary failure mode is not chipping, even at Rc61. It will normally experience plastic deformation similar to INFI.
 
i just got my hoodhunter 10 with serial # 12 :D i have to say this knife has incredible quality control. i can't wait to try it out.
 
Hi Jerry,

Ive been in hopes you would join this discussion as you have been working with CPM 3V for a long time.
I also have NEVER exp chipping with 3V, I have used it for awhile with the Fehrman blades I own, It has held its edge better then any blade I have used in regaurds to large chopping blades, It holds its edge for a very long time.

Like I said before, Brian Jones and Ron Hood are probably the only ones im aware of that have used Fehrman knives longer, and I have never had the problem Cliff is saying he is seeing, and I know for a fact I have used my Fehrmans much harder then he has in the woods for the last 3 years I guess.....................

I think what folks need to do is read all reviews and make there own conclusion on what to expect from knives and there makers, I myself coudnt be happier with CPM 3V.



Just my 2 pennies :D
 
Witchhunter,

Congrats buddy on a great blade, I knew you would love that attention to detail, it is second to none, Eric takes great pride in his attention to detail, I guess thats a trait with tool & die makers ;)
 
When did this thread turn into a Busse commercial, and a bad one at that? A warning would be in order. Something like "nuclear" in caps inserted say ten times at random locations in every offending post. :barf: :barf:
 
Cliff has experienced a fairly good amount of chipping with 3V and some folks have not. I really wonder how the results could be so different?

3V @ 61 HRC??? :confused:

On the Crucible information web page for 3V they say 3V has been designed to perform best @ 58-60 HRC... Has Paul Bos found a way to get 3V @ 61HRC without loosing too much toughness?
 
And so the review of a Fehrman knife turns into a thread about 3V, its strengths and shortcomings, by people who jump to all kind of erroneous conclusions because they can't read plain English, then the Fehrman is forgotten, and it all turns into a Busse commercial. Amazing.


You take INFI down to a .02" edge, and it is no longer the super steel that people seem to think it is with that thick factory edge. It chips just like other steels. Hit a rock or a nail with it now, and you're in for some sharpening. Most people will never see a .02" edge on a larger Busse. An edge like that would start much higher than the factory bevel, and well up into the primary grind on some models.
A big part of Busses' durability is their edge and blade geometry, not just the steel. I see people go on and on about how "INFI would have done this", "a Busse can do that", while ignoring the size or type of knife, the geometry, the things that make a knife do what it's supposed to do-cut. Those are the people who know NOTHING about their knives beyond the hype they've been fed.
I've been beating on INFI and M-INFI for years. It's good enough to stand on its own without misleading people about it, but some folks are just into the image, not the reality.
 
Jerry Hossom said:
You're right Cliff, I have no information to offer on chopping concrete or rocks. .
Click to expand...
I asked about impacts with hard objects, flexibility and hitting the edge into a hard object, such as a nail or rock. So as a tactical knifemaker you have no knowledge about your knives toughness if struck with a hard object, their flexibility if bent, or the edge toughness if chopped into a hard object?

Dalko, ask if that performance is guaranteed and that you can test this guarantee under warrenty for yourself. Then ask Phil Wilson about testing he has done at 3V at high hardness levels. He has ran it from 58-62 and examined the performance with full cryo. See where he says to run a large heavy impact blade.

As for concrete, it isn't even an extreme test. As the run with Ray's blade should show as that was a very acutely ground knife. With an edge angle about half that of most tactical knives. Concrete is a lot easier on a knife than a rock or nail, both of which are not uncommon for accidental field use. Concrete is even easier than really dense bone, as concrete will just shatter upon impact.

Cutting into a live hard target is *many* times over more stressful than cutting into a concrete block. I have done cutting trials into a large piece of free hanging bone (caribou leg) and the edge damage can be *massively* greater, due to the much higher torques exerted on the edges. Concrete is nothing to get excited about.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, the EJ has a flat grind, so if you keep grinding it you'll eventually get a thicker edge, right? Have you planned to do so in order to get a 0.035'' thick edge and then perform the same tests you've done to see how the thicker edge will perform?

Also, do you think that adding some N, Ni and Si to 3V would make it better?
(question also open to everyone)
 
I chop nails and bone. A 3V Espada reviewed on here some years ago cut through a shank of beef, including over 9" of flesh and more than 3" of bone without effect on the blade or splintering the outcut on the bone, even after repeated cuts. 3V cuts mild steel without a problem, as does S30V for that matter. I have had a customer bend an Rc61 CPM-3v blade to 90 degree repeatedly before it finally broke on the fourth bend, twice back and forth, though not all blades will do that and I certainly don't recommend it. That was a test to assess an unreasonable level of abuse. Rocks or aggregate (rock) containing concrete are not what I consider reasonable test media. Concrete in general is highly variable in its structure. I warrant all my knives against breakage, including intentional (once).

3V and S30V contain nitrogen.

I don't take orders so I'm not trying to sell anything.
 
I saw the pics of the Swamp Rat knife cutting a concrete block and was quite impressed myself. A test of some use I guess, but entertaining more than anything.

I predict this thread is about to get out of hand...
 
Why do you Jerry get your 3V @ 61 HRC? Is it still somewhat tough or you prefer 61 to have the highest wear resistance possible?

This high value surprises me.... :confused:
 
I have heard things that Swamp Rats steel does much better in concrete than INFI ever could(i presume the source to be reliable). Is cutting concrete useful....no....is it neat...sure.

In my experience, large Infi blades are very good. Some times the level of hype surrounding a certain brand or maker can be thick and confuse the issues. Consistently though, large Infi blades out perform most knives and some hatchets on heavy tasks in my experience.

3V sounds interesting. featherstone45, what fehrman model do you own? Could you comment on it's edge geometry? Do you have any of the small ones?
 
Cliff said:
This wasn't by chance, the knives were edge set at at a wide range and tested inbetween until the performance was reached. Then the spine was tested over a range until the required amount of flex and strength was obtained. This isn't a case of lets ask Crucible or let some heat treater decide. It is lets evaluate the cycles over a bunch of ranges and see what works best for what we want. A lot of time and a lot of broken blades later and a knife is born.
Click to expand...

The bold emphasis is mine.
So much for unbiased testing.
Still not sure? Reread the first sentence in this thread.
 
Hi Lukers,

The 3 Fehrmans I own are 2 FJ's and a Last Chance, the edge are thinner then alot of big blades (9-10) inches, but thick enough to chop with.

Why I think the Fehrman offers the best of both worlds is that the edge is thin enough to clean game with ease, takin hides etc. with no problem at all, they slice very well. I have cleaned out wild boar which is hell for a edge, due to all the damn dirt and mud those suckers roll in over time, there skins can become like armour so to speak. But the Fehrman handled it with no problem and the edge was still pretty sharp, sharp enough to scrape hair after.
This is something I havent seen before with edge holding when cleaning a pretty big boar( about 350 pounds).When you have a blade that can do that and still chop very well with no edge damage and hold its edge for a very long time when chopping, you have a winner in my book :D

Fehrmans are great knives that slice very well for there size and chop very well also, add great edge holding with toughnessto that and its pure smiles ;)
 
What puzzles me is why none of the other makers have ever answered Busse's challenge to a head to head 'test' in front of a live audience, say at BLADE or SHOT?

Jerry Busse has thrown down the guantlent (?), but, as of yet, no one has picked it up. Why?

Busse seems to put his knives (and money) where his mouth is. Will anyone else do the same? I'd REALLY be interested!

Until they do, I'll be sending my money to Wauseon, OH.

Rob
 
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