F.F. D2 better than INFI?

[Cobalt]

Wow! They cut 1/2" manila rope a thousand times?. . . . Hmmmm. . . We did 2,771 pieces of 1" manila rope, (That's twice as thick) in a live demo and the knife was still shaving well past the 2,000 piece mark. . . I guess that would translate to 4,000 half inch cuts. . .

1,000 cuts?. . . Nice appetizer. . . What's for dinner? :thumbup:

Jerry

you forgot to mention that those 2,771 cuts were all on one small marked off section of the blade. Also, didn't you run out of rope?

 

[idahoskunk]

you forgot to mention that those 2,771 cuts were all on one small marked off section of the blade. Also, didn't you run out of rope?

he does that when he's drunk, forgets that is....



.

 

[wayne37]

I have owned and own many D2 knives, and just recently have purchased a few Busse's
and after trying INFI I have to honestly say that D2 just doesn't cut it for me anymore !

 

[OldPhysics]

ok, so what happens with FFD2 is that it is a localized hardening process with really fine grain. The remainder of the blade is soft to give the knife a similar performance to a differentially heat treated steel. But it attains an Rc of 67 which is well above most D2 knives.

If you are asking if the edge on an FFD2 knife will outlast INFI in regular cutting of soft tissue, I would have to say yes based on hardness and overall wear resistance with an Rc of 67.

But when you start hacking into hardwoods, bone, I would say INFI would smoke it bar none. INFI is considerably tougher and will take much more abuse. Anything that would chip out D2 might not do anything but slightly roll INFI. There is no doubt that INFI would smoke it in a hard use situation.

D2 is NOT a tough steel by any means. It is not even a hard use steel. This is not uncommon knowledge. FFD2 will not be any tougher than a differentially treated version. It is still a stainless steel or semi stainless. But D2 is a great steel all it's own. I prefer it to other stainless steels.


You all know or some of you do, how Jerry takes his search of better steels and processes, seriously. I do not think there is a knifemaker out there that has tried more strange, oddball steels than Jerry. The FF process is not proprietary, it is a known process and there is no secret behind it. Anyone can do it if they have the money to buy the machinery.

I would love to see a comparison between the SwampRat D2 knife versus the FFD2.

Sage advice.

That said, I'll be following some of the upcoming scientific measurements of the region affected by their high pressure process. Certainly, they've reduced the grain size. I'd like to see what's happening at the inter-grain boundaries ... and whether or not any orientation is occurring in the grains. I'd also like to see if the grains all share the same steel polytype.

Yeah, I know. Geek stuff.

None of it means the edge will be as tough as INFI. Like Cobalt, I very much doubt that it will be. The process is still pretty cool, and I may one day pick up a small version of this for cutting soft tissue -- just as Cobalt suggests.

I'd rather have INFI.

 

[Tony G]

I have owned and own many D2 knives, and just recently have purchased a few Busse's
and after trying INFI I have to honestly say that D2 just doesn't cut it for me anymore !

I agree. And also the steel is just part of a knife. I have had great utility from Bob Dosier's D2:thumbup: and then had many other D2 knives chip if I looked at them wrong. :grumpy:

INFI is great steel and more importantly the knives that use INFI are made by Busse.

 

[nozh2002]

Wow! They cut 1/2" manila rope a thousand times?. . . . Hmmmm. . . We did 2,771 pieces of 1" manila rope, (That's twice as thick) in a live demo and the knife was still shaving well past the 2,000 piece mark. . . I guess that would translate to 4,000 half inch cuts. . .

1,000 cuts?. . . Nice appetizer. . . What's for dinner? :thumbup:

Jerry

Why don't you have side to side competition? It will set things straight.
I am very sure that if you challenge FF they will have to do this because of all that PR going on right now.

Actually it will be interesting to see how other steel will prform against INFI side by side too - like ZDP189, OU31, YXR7, CPM 10V, Duratech20 etc...

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Cobalt]

Why don't you have side to side competition? It will set things straight.
I am very sure that if you challenge FF they will have to do this because of all that PR going on right now.

Actually it will be interesting to see how other steel will prform against INFI side by side too - like ZDP189, OU31, YXR7, CPM 10V, Duratech20 etc...

Thanks, Vassili.

I remember somewhere where Jerry has an ongoing challenge at every Blade and has not been taken up on it.

I do not really think that they will challenge on an all out test. They would be foolish to think their steel can outperform any of the known tough steels available today such as INFI, S7, CPM3V, S5, etc. Hell I bet 52100, 5160 would beat it in the toughness department.

But just a cutting test comparison would be interesting.

Jamie, my worry at the grain boundaries is improper tempering causing stress risers that might propagate fracture. I have seen this with differentially HT blades, except for the swamprats, which are tough as nails. They have not toughness tested these blades just done cutting comparisons. So toughness is still a HUGE question mark on FFD2

 

[JohnTheTexican]

Wow! They cut 1/2" manila rope a thousand times?. . . . Hmmmm. . . We did 2,771 pieces of 1" manila rope, (That's twice as thick) in a live demo and the knife was still shaving well past the 2,000 piece mark. . . I guess that would translate to 4,000 half inch cuts. . .

1,000 cuts?. . . Nice appetizer. . . What's for dinner? :thumbup:

Jerry

I don't mean to argue with el Cerdo Jefe, but isn't it really the cross-sectional area the better measure of how much rope is being cut, and since A = πr2, aren't we really talking about a 4 to 1 ratio? And wouldn't that really translate to 11084 half-inch cuts?

 

[OldPhysics]

Jamie, my worry at the grain boundaries is improper tempering causing stress risers that might propagate fracture. I have seen this with differentially HT blades, except for the swamprats, which are tough as nails. They have not toughness tested these blades just done cutting comparisons. So toughness is still a HUGE question mark on FFD2

I was wondering about that. There could be a heavy pressure differential across the friction forging zone or perhaps too great a difference in the chemical potential on each side of the phase transformation boundary. Either problem could easily cause stress risers...and that always means propagation for any micro-fractures present. I know they're going to do some reasonably sensitive technical tests (including good old electron microscopy -- a fine idea for material as conductive as this), though probably not during the FF process; I just don't know if they're going to share the results. Absolutely agree that toughness is a big 'who knows' -- but probably not anywhere near that of INFI.

We shall see.

In my youth...or even in my middleth...I could have brought a knife into my lab and started poking away at it. But -- it's too late now. Just a 'senior guy' without a lab now. Just another gray-beard advisor. Sheesh ***

 

[OldPhysics]

I don't mean to argue with el Cerdo Jefe, but isn't it really the cross-sectional area the better measure of how much rope is being cut, and since A = πr2, aren't we really talking about a 4 to 1 ratio? And wouldn't that really translate to 11084 half-inch cuts?

Only if during each cut both knives passed through the same amount of surface (per distance travelled within the rope) -- which isn't true. So, I'd say we're somewhere between your optimistic (but flattering) 11084 cuts and Jerry's 4K (or so) cuts.

We'd need a Bionic Man to do that test!

 

[Jaxx]

Only if during each cut both knives passed through the same amount of surface (per distance travelled within the rope) -- which isn't true. So, I'd say we're somewhere between your optimistic (but flattering) 11084 cuts and Jerry's 4K (or so) cuts.

We'd need a Bionic Man to do that test!

Awwww, to heck with all that math! Let's just send one from each company to Mythbusters!!! LOL

 

[wayne37]

Awwww, to heck with all that math! Let's just send one from each company to Mythbusters!!! LOL

I like the cut of you jib! lets do it ! YEAAAA BABY

 

[Hogwash]

They should have used an AK-47 for their sword cutting sword myth. Instead they used a "battle ready" katana.

Some times their research just isn't thorough enough.

 

[OldPhysics]

Awwww, to heck with all that math! Let's just send one from each company to Mythbusters!!! LOL

I admit, I do like the boys.

But ... since we don't need the knives blown up ... that might not be appropriate.

Unless of course the young lady could be convinced to do the tests. In, say, a Brazilian bikini. :thumbup:

 

[Dennis in MA]

you forgot to mention that those 2,771 cuts were all on one small marked off section of the blade. Also, didn't you run out of rope?

And they were all push cuts. Were the FFD2 pushcuts or slices?

 

[mhawg]

I admit, I do like the boys.

But ... since we don't need the knives blown up ... that might not be appropriate.

Unless of course the young lady could be convinced to do the tests. In, say, a Brazilian bikini. :thumbup:

I believe 'Thong Burn' would set in after less that 2000 cuts!!

 

[James 61]

I admit, I do like the boys.

But ... since we don't need the knives blown up ... that might not be appropriate.

Unless of course the young lady could be convinced to do the tests. In, say, a Brazilian bikini. :thumbup:

+1 on the bikini. Didn't I read somewhere that somebody already try to blow up INFI and failed?

I don't think 1,000 1/2 inch cuts even counts as an appatizer. More like canape's.

 

[cjpgeyer]

The kicker, or reason I really had to start this was the cover....
FRICTION-FORGED DIAMONDBLADES
'Indestructible' Knives Are Here!



Where are those rons with the masks when you really need a knife destroyed?

 

[Progunner]

You are aware that it is a proprietary process, much like INFI is with Busse. Using your argument, they can claim that if INFI was as good as FF, they would be making their blades out of INFI....

I am not in the mood for an argument or a flame war. What I meant was if there is a better steel out there, Jerry would use it. He's about performance not who's tool is bigger. Hell, I don't even know if he has acquired any FF D2 to test. He's the man with the metallurgical know how not me.

On the topic of the challenge Jerry has out, one would say well why don't you get knives from other makers and do the side by side comparisons in public yourself. The challenge is for the markers themselves. If the makers doesn't bring a blade along, then they could always cry wolf and allege that tampering had gone one. So Jerry's challenge is a head to head match up, he'll bring his, and you bring yours. I have yet to see anyone take him up on it at Blade. I keep going in the hopes that I'll see one of these thing go down, but so far no dice.

 

[nozh2002]

I am not in the mood for an argument or a flame war. What I meant was if there is a better steel out there, Jerry would use it. He's about performance not who's tool is bigger. Hell, I don't even know if he has acquired and FF D2 to test. He's the man with the metallurgical know how not me.

It will very interesting to see his observation or opinion on other steels, they constantly test to make sure INFI is better. Side to side testing results etc...

Thanks, Vassili.