F.F. D2 better than INFI?

[ADD]

D2 is NOT a tough steel by any means. It is not even a hard use steel. This is not uncommon knowledge. FFD2 will not be any tougher than a differentially treated version. It is still a stainless steel or semi stainless. But D2 is a great steel all it's own. I prefer it to other stainless steels.

Sorry, can't let this one get a pass... D2, I believe is a tool steel. Used for steel cutting dies.

Walk into a tool and die shop and tell the operator at the machine he is at the steel in the tool he is using to cut other metal with is not tough by any means and that this is common knowledge

Good heat treat and design (geometry) will surely play a big role as well.

Sincerely,
Cliff S D)

 

[Helle]

I don't have a lot of INFI, but I haven't found anything I like more.

FFD2 sounds interesting, but so did liquid metal. At 67rc? I'd like to see how the edge holds up to a, oops was that a nail test, or dang it, there's a rock down there, test.

I'm thinking big chip, but it'll be interesting to see.

Helle

 

[mister_wilburn]

...........

 

[nozh2002]

So far I know ASI from Germani did side by side testing and his not too much accurate results are:

CPM 10V 999 cuts (2.8 mm thick) stoped because was tiered
INFI from ScarpYard 300 cuts resharpened to 25 degree (out of the box - 60)
YXR7 250 cuts
X12MF (russian D2 by SHirogorov) 206 cuts
Metalloceramic blade (steel with added abrasive by Petric?) 167 cuts
SR101 100 cuts (after reprofiling to 25-30 degree)
ZDP189 (endura) 80
154CM (BM) 65

I am going to try what I have sometime, but I am going to do this for last 2 years.

Will be nice to see what Busse have from their lab.

Thanks, Vassili.

CPM D2 (Mili) 140 cuts
Duratech20 (X18) 237 cuts

 

[Wayne G.]

In order for endurance cutting tests to truly and fairly test the edge holding ability of blades all factors have to be as close to identical as is humanly possible. That means comparing two blades on the same day, using the same rope, same cross section on the blades and same sharpening technique.
A slicing test will give different results than a push-it-through test. I’ve used the slicing test on rope since 1973 because it will quickly dull a knife and get the test over with. And, I believe rope slicing most resembles the use a knife gets in a real life situation.
A general misconception was stated on this thread that I’d like to clear up.
The body of the friction forged blade is hardened and spring tempered prior to the friction forging. At the mid 40’s Rc the body of the blade is springy, neither under hardened or soft.
With fair witnesses I’d be glad to compare an INFI blade to a FFD2 blade in a rope slicing endurance test. The INFI blade would need to be one inch wide, .100 at the back, four inches long, flat ground to a .015 flat and have a sharpening angle of 18-degrees. It has to be that way to get a comparison of the quality of the blade. My field tester and test buddy Maynard and I are having a hard time getting comparisons between FFD2 and some of the best CPM steels because the CPM blades being tested are much thinner in cross section that the stock FFD2.
DiamondBlade is offering four models at this time. They are designed and sold as precision hunting type knives as the cross section explained above indicates. Knives are finally being delivered and time will tell if the results the metallurgists, product developers, and I as a designer/knife tester have gotten.

Wayne G

 

[nozh2002]

I guess 18 degree does not looks like real life test. I think with this it should also tested with edge 25-30 degree which is common angle, as well as with .200 thickness. Otherwise it will be in razor class not knives, at least not Busse knives.

BTW CPM 10V tested by ASI was exactely 0.1" (2.8mm), so should not be to hard to have one of this knives from Phill Whillson.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[azshaman]

Well, boyz, I'm still new at this, but all this tech talk comes down to a simple choice for me: INFI, or not-INFI. Since I've NEVER owned a not-INFI that does what my INFI does, it really isn't any choice at all!

A girl needs a knife....and I've got mine!

 

[Cobalt]

In order for endurance cutting tests to truly and fairly test the edge holding ability of blades all factors have to be as close to identical as is humanly possible. That means comparing two blades on the same day, using the same rope, same cross section on the blades and same sharpening technique.
A slicing test will give different results than a push-it-through test. I’ve used the slicing test on rope since 1973 because it will quickly dull a knife and get the test over with. And, I believe rope slicing most resembles the use a knife gets in a real life situation.
A general misconception was stated on this thread that I’d like to clear up.
The body of the friction forged blade is hardened and spring tempered prior to the friction forging. At the mid 40’s Rc the body of the blade is springy, neither under hardened or soft.
With fair witnesses I’d be glad to compare an INFI blade to a FFD2 blade in a rope slicing endurance test. The INFI blade would need to be one inch wide, .100 at the back, four inches long, flat ground to a .015 flat and have a sharpening angle of 18-degrees. It has to be that way to get a comparison of the quality of the blade. My field tester and test buddy Maynard and I are having a hard time getting comparisons between FFD2 and some of the best CPM steels because the CPM blades being tested are much thinner in cross section that the stock FFD2.
DiamondBlade is offering four models at this time. They are designed and sold as precision hunting type knives as the cross section explained above indicates. Knives are finally being delivered and time will tell if the results the metallurgists, product developers, and I as a designer/knife tester have gotten.

Wayne G

Or at Blade 08 you could set up a stand produce some blades out of a similar style as INFI get a similar grind and take up the infi challenge. :thumbup:

 

[Cobalt]

So far I know ASI from Germani did side by side testing and his not too much accurate results are:

CPM 10V 999 cuts (2.8 mm thick) stoped because was tiered
INFI from ScarpYard 300 cuts resharpened to 25 degree (out of the box - 60)
YXR7 250 cuts
X12MF (russian D2 by SHirogorov) 206 cuts
Metalloceramic blade (steel with added abrasive by Petric?) 167 cuts
SR101 100 cuts (after reprofiling to 25-30 degree)
ZDP189 (endura) 80
154CM (BM) 65

I am going to try what I have sometime, but I am going to do this for last 2 years.

Will be nice to see what Busse have from their lab.

Thanks, Vassili.

CPM D2 (Mili) 140 cuts
Duratech20 (X18) 237 cuts

I have never seen these results, thanks for the info.

 

[Cobalt]

Sorry, can't let this one get a pass... D2, I believe is a tool steel. Used for steel cutting dies.

Walk into a tool and die shop and tell the operator at the machine he is at the steel in the tool he is using to cut other metal with is not tough by any means and that this is common knowledge

Good heat treat and design (geometry) will surely play a big role as well.

Sincerely,
Cliff S D)

Yup your right I can't let this pass as well A.D.D:

Rc of 60 D2 has a toughness of 20 ft.lbs

Rc of 60 S7 has a toughness of 120 ft.lbs

Rc of 60 3V has a toughness of 50 ft.lbs

Rc of 60 A2 has a toughness of 40 ft.lbs


Hmmm, cutting soft steel is easy I have done it dozens of times with my BM's with no edge damage and higher lateral forces than a straight up and down punch die.

 

[steelnut]

Here comes the canoe paddle...

 

[resinguy]

In order for endurance cutting tests to truly and fairly test the edge holding ability of blades all factors have to be as close to identical as is humanly possible......
Wayne G

Wayne, thanks for coming in and adding to our technical discussion. As you remind us, only with the same blade/edge geometry, can we realistcally compare the steels. It's great to have these exchanges, unsullied by digressions. Hope you come back again, soon.

Hey, maybe Ban can grind an edge down to Wayne's specified geometry!

 

[cjpgeyer]

I would like to add my problem is with the hyperbole used in these articles nowadays. There is no side by side comparisons, no research. Just a bunch of spouting off and foaming at the mouth. It is as bad as 'news reporting' just telling you 'the script', and not doing the leg work (Dan Rather, anyone?).
I know from personal experience, as well as BossHog's own testing, that none of the tests in this article exceed INFI expectations. I guess with 'Tactical' in the name of the mag, I should have seen this coming. Still some good articles, but for reviews? Baahhumbug!

 

[Wayne G.]

I would like to add my problem is with the hyperbole used in these articles nowadays. There is no side by side comparisons, no research. Just a bunch of spouting off and foaming at the mouth. It is as bad as 'news reporting' just telling you 'the script', and not doing the leg work (Dan Rather, anyone?).
I know from personal experience, as well as BossHog's own testing, that none of the tests in this article exceed INFI expectations. I guess with 'Tactical' in the name of the mag, I should have seen this coming. Still some good articles, but for reviews? Baahhumbug!

I’m not here to defend FFD2 as much as I’m here in an attempt to help clear up the confusion about what exactly it is. The friction forging process creates a form of D2 on the edge portion that isn't explained by conventional metallurgy theory. There is more to be learned, the process isn't considered finished but a work in progress.

It would be good for those interested in learning more to check out the FAQ at DiamondBladeKnives.com
http://www.diamondbladeknives.com/faq.aspx

I probably wouldn't have believed the edge holding ability either..... until I tested it with my own two hands. Fair tests, comparisons made with knives of known value, that’s always the rule. Time will tell the value of this process, not what we write here.

At this time DiamondBlade makes knives for the hunter and outdoorsman. Quite naturally, the blades are made for precision work.

I've heard that a tactical knife is in the works. Also, work is in process to see if it is possible to get FFD2 blades into the hands of some of the cutters who compete in the BladeSports International competition.

Wayne G

 

[steelnut]

Very intresting!
Wonder what it would do to a billet on INFI?

 

[Last Visible Canary]

You are aware that it is a proprietary process, much like INFI is with Busse. Using your argument, they can claim that if INFI was as good as FF, they would be making their blades out of INFI....

good is relative to individual aspects of performance, as well as overall performance.

infi performs very well in all categories, which will more often then not make it more desirable for busse combat then a steel that is lacking in one, but superior in another.

one of the things that infi has that I don't beleive could be obtained by ff is the high amount of leverage required to actually get the blade to bend. at 60rc, infi can take a great deal of pressure before it starts to curve, and even more before it takes a set. unless you could ff a steel that can be differentially heat treated at the spine to be able to take similar pressures without compromising its likely hood of breaking before taking a set - ff will not be able to match infi in that category.

since pry bar work is one of the things busse's get tested on and are expected to be able to do, it is somewhat important...


the beneficial qualities that make infi blades stand above the rest =
plasticity at high hardness (60rc) (it will never, ever chip)
corrosion resistant
impact and shock resistant
high pressure required to take a set
will take a set before breaking
high wear resistance on soft materials
ease of sharpening


if ffd2 can match all of those categories in an overall blade performance, I will be very very impressed.

 

[nozh2002]

the beneficial qualities that make infi blades stand above the rest =
plasticity at high hardness (60rc) (it will never, ever chip)
corrosion resistant
impact and shock resistant
high pressure required to take a set
will take a set before breaking
high wear resistance on soft materials
ease of sharpening

Are there any data on this parameters on INFI and other steels? I mean results of the tests to compare.

Thanks, Vassili.

R.S. Sure it should be something on at least INFI and SR101 and SR77.

 

[Willieboy]

It would be interesting to see the results of a head-to-head test between INFI and the FFD2 when all things, including blade and OAL length, were equal.

 

[cjpgeyer]

I agree time will tell, and what is written by me OR Tactical Knives will not determine the outcome. Surely we can agree, "Indestructible" is hyperbole. All knives can fail.

 

[Cobalt]

I would like to add my problem is with the hyperbole used in these articles nowadays. There is no side by side comparisons, no research. Just a bunch of spouting off and foaming at the mouth. It is as bad as 'news reporting' just telling you 'the script', and not doing the leg work (Dan Rather, anyone?).
I know from personal experience, as well as BossHog's own testing, that none of the tests in this article exceed INFI expectations. I guess with 'Tactical' in the name of the mag, I should have seen this coming. Still some good articles, but for reviews? Baahhumbug!

AGREED. It is funny how new steels that have an in with some mag writer get play time on magazines, yet INFI because it is not so easily available to everyone never gets any, yet it is the big boy on the block.

I remember the one magazine writer who came on here and whined like a baby because he could not get preferential treatment in getting an FBM. And pretty much indiated that he could not possibly write an article if he could not get a knife intime. Well, I guess he had to wait like the rest of us.

The fact is that INFI has been around for a long time and it does not have to challenge FFD2 or anything else, they have to challenge INFI and they can do so at Blade 08 like anyone else can, but have never done so.

Having said that I hope FFD2 turns out to be a respectable stainless steel and I hope that it can measure up to Falkniven, which is where they should be aiming, realistically.

I wish I had a swamprat D2 knife to compare it to.