F.F. D2 better than INFI?

[Last Visible Canary]

Are there any data on this parameters on INFI and other steels? I mean results of the tests to compare.

Thanks, Vassili.

R.S. Sure it should be something on at least INFI and SR101 and SR77.

plastisity, corrosion resistance and wear resistance on soft materials have been shown before, but not in a really objective side by side comparison that I can recall. I would need to search the forums to find the salt water spray thread I vaguely recall, as well as pulling up the various threads showing what should be chips but end up being rolls and mashes... and the wear resistance is mostly from the rope cut tests that have been posted.

but again, as far as a side by side comparison for statistical data and analysis, the only ones I've ever seen have been from cliff stamp.

 

[nozh2002]

I found that Cliff Stamp just use this scientific language to pretend that there is something behind this. In general most people just will say Oh... he is Scientist. And for most it is good enough to start praying on him... But if you try to analyze or went through his texts - it is really nothing he can present, mostly second hand opinions and someone else results etc... So I am not praying on him at all.

It seems that so far what ASI present is best what we have in terms of side by side comparison...

I hope I finally do something myself with all this steel I collect...

Thanks, Vassili

 

[Cobalt]

I found that Cliff Stamp just use this scientific language to pretend that there is something behind this. In general most people just will say Oh... he is Scientist. And for most it is good enough to start praying on him... But if you try to analyze or went through his texts - it is really nothing he can present, mostly second hand opinions and someone else results etc... So I am not praying on him at all.

It seems that so far what ASI present is best what we have in terms of side by side comparison...

I hope I finally do something myself with all this steel I collect...

Thanks, Vassili

Well, the makers of FFD2 and it's knives need to set parameters of what they expect FFS2 to be capable and what they will WARRANTY against. My assumption is that if FFD2 is so Great, then thy will be giving it an equall Guanranty, kinda like Busse. This goes a long ways in telling someone. If you break it, we replace it no questions asked.

 

[OldPhysics]

Well, the makers of FFD2 and it's knives need to set parameters of what they expect FFS2 to be capable and what they will WARRANTY against. My assumption is that if FFD2 is so Great, then thy will be giving it an equall Guanranty, kinda like Busse. This goes a long ways in telling someone. If you break it, we replace it no questions asked.

Some of Cobalt's reliable common sense. I agree.

From what I can tell, the folks making this steel (actually, re-processing D2 in this somewhat new way) are still trying to understand what they've created. They are still sponsoring technical examination of the material -- which is difficult, time-consuming, expensive and often hard to interpret. Technical testing usually leads to more testing. It takes time.

In that interim, marketing steps into the void. People selling a product often (maybe always) step past the edge of what a scientist or engineer would be willing to claim.

And we get controversy. But ... time will tell.

 

[TBDAugs]

To understand how Friction forging could improve high temp melting materials, one might start with the seminal patents, related mostly to joining.

PAT. NO. Title
1 7,270,257 Out-of-position friction stir welding of high melting temperature alloys
2 7,210,610 Apparatus and method for performing non-linear friction stir welds on either planar or non-planar surfaces
3 7,152,776 Friction stir welding using a superabrasive tool
4 7,124,929 Friction stir welding of metal matrix composites, ferrous alloys, non-ferrous alloys, and superalloys using a superabrasive tool
5 6,779,704 Friction stir welding of metal matrix composites, ferrous alloys, non-ferrous alloys, and superalloys using a superabrasive tool
6 6,732,901 Anvil for friction stir welding high temperature materials

Dr's Tracy Nelson and Carl Sorenstam are regular posters here.

TMAZAugs

 

[Cobalt]

To understand how Friction forging could improve high temp melting materials, one might start with the seminal patents, related mostly to joining.

PAT. NO. Title
1 7,270,257 Out-of-position friction stir welding of high melting temperature alloys
2 7,210,610 Apparatus and method for performing non-linear friction stir welds on either planar or non-planar surfaces
3 7,152,776 Friction stir welding using a superabrasive tool
4 7,124,929 Friction stir welding of metal matrix composites, ferrous alloys, non-ferrous alloys, and superalloys using a superabrasive tool
5 6,779,704 Friction stir welding of metal matrix composites, ferrous alloys, non-ferrous alloys, and superalloys using a superabrasive tool
6 6,732,901 Anvil for friction stir welding high temperature materials

Dr's Tracy Nelson and Carl Sorenstam are regular posters here.

TMAZAugs

thanks should pose some interesting reading. :thumbup:

 

[Eric_425]

BWhahahahaha.....
Whatever. I've learned to come to ignore the cry of "SUPERSTEEL" It's crap. Just give any steel a few years, and it won't seem any better than any of the other high quality knife out there. AFAIK, ZDP is probably better.

Yeah... to be honest, I've never really noticed much difference between any of the good knife steels in real use. Blade geometry and design made a huge difference. Steel type... not so much.

 

[jeepin]

So far I know ASI from Germani did side by side testing and his not too much accurate results are:

CPM 10V 999 cuts (2.8 mm thick) stoped because was tiered
INFI from ScarpYard 300 cuts resharpened to 25 degree (out of the box - 60)
YXR7 250 cuts
X12MF (russian D2 by SHirogorov) 206 cuts
Metalloceramic blade (steel with added abrasive by Petric?) 167 cuts
SR101 100 cuts (after reprofiling to 25-30 degree)
ZDP189 (endura) 80
154CM (BM) 65

I am going to try what I have sometime, but I am going to do this for last 2 years.

Will be nice to see what Busse have from their lab.

Thanks, Vassili.

CPM D2 (Mili) 140 cuts
Duratech20 (X18) 237 cuts

Looks like infi got blown away by CPM 10V

 

[RevBubba]

As Wayne said...it seems that the FFD2 is being used initially at least for small detail cutting knives, not chopping and prying. So comparing the current FFD2 knives to the majority of the Busse line is not possible as the Busse edge geomotrey is designed for durability and absolute unfailing strenth.

However, bending a knife to 120 degrees and have ZERO chipping of an RC67 edge is amazing no matter what steel you use.

 

[Wayne G.]

Think of INFI as the Hummer of steels.

Think of FFD2 as a fast sports car. (all I could think of for a quickie note)

Which is better than the other? In what way? The two vehicles are hard to compare, except with stuff in their same class.

INFI and FFD2 might be the best in their class for the intended purpose but it's kinda hard to test one against the other as overall knives. The steel, heat treat, initial sharpness and endurance cutting ability can only be tested if two specimens are prepared that have the same cross section and sharpening job.

FFD2 can be flexed 120-degrees then straightened with no cracking of the edge. This doesn't necessarily make it better than anything else. It's only a statement of what I've done with my two hands. I suppose it isn't necessary to have a knife that is capable of that test but it does prove the flexible strength of the FFD2 edge on the DiamondBlade knives.

Wayne G

 

[Cobalt]

Looks like infi got blown away by CPM 10V

Not really a revelation of any kind unless you are new to the forums. also INFI blows it away in toughnss and strength:


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88857


http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/INFI_10V.html


The above two articles show 10V to have much better edge holding. CPM10V has about 4 times the wear resistance of D2 and about the same toughness but has poor corrosion resistance. Also 10V's toughness is about 1/3 of cpm3V and half of A2, so it is not a tough steel by any means but makes a good slicer.

Waynes comments make perfect sense. If the fFD2 has a high wear resistance and slightly more toughness than std D2 it would make a good all around steel. INFI is designed for ultimate combination of toughness, strength, wear resistance, edge holding, corrosion resistance.

I would love to see F.F.SR77 - might just be the baddest thing on this planet. Keeping an SR77 (S7 mod) at an Rc of 54 and FF'ing the edge to an Rc of 63 or so would be incredible.

 

[thombrogan]

Keeping an SR77 (S7 mod) at an Rc of 54 and FF'ing the edge to an Rc of 63 or so would be incredible.

You're a bad, bad man, Mr. Cobalt. On some of the tougher steels; maybe all; you can through-harden them to a very tough and relatively hard RC 58 and then induction-harden the very edge to RC 65. Not entirely practical as the hardened edge will sharpen out in a few sessions, but can be done with steels which are already finely grained instead of stir-welding a new edge.

 

[Cobalt]

You're a bad, bad man, Mr. Cobalt. .

Not me, I'm a

 

[Last Visible Canary]

I wish I was a bald man holding a city.....


photoshop cs3's lens distortion correction utility is just about the coolest dang thing ever...


also worth noting that the cpm 10v blade was 2.8mm (I assume thick). thats just under 1/8" thick - more then likely considerably thinner then anything from scrapyard. while the thickness of the spine may not have an overly influential effect on cutting rope (the rope probably only reaches the halfway point in the blade), it does effect it if the geometry puts more metal directly behind the edge.

this doesn't dispute or change anything that was said about the edge retention qualities of cpm 10v, It's just worth noting....

 

[thombrogan]

So it's settled, then:

FFD2 is really cool; INFI is really cool; CPM-10V was designed to frustrate knifemakers; and Cobalt walks around with a small town in his hands while making suggestions normally heard by bad, bad men.

 

[DWRW]

Wow! They cut 1/2" manila rope a thousand times?. . . . Hmmmm. . . We did 2,771 pieces of 1" manila rope, (That's twice as thick) in a live demo and the knife was still shaving well past the 2,000 piece mark. . . I guess that would translate to 4,000 half inch cuts. . .

1,000 cuts?. . . Nice appetizer. . . What's for dinner? :thumbup:

Jerry

Actually, the cross-section "area" of a 1" rope is about 4 times great than that of a .5" rope!!! So, you could argue that 2,771 cuts of 1" manila rope is probably more comparable to 11,084 cuts of .5" rope!!! :thumbup:

But, another variable might be that the cutting area is spread out over "X" unknown blade length...?

And consideration might be given to the edge wear on the cutting surface if this rope is cut on some sort of cutting board.



Still....... next test!

 

[DWRW]

I don't mean to argue with el Cerdo Jefe, but isn't it really the cross-sectional area the better measure of how much rope is being cut, and since A = πr2, aren't we really talking about a 4 to 1 ratio? And wouldn't that really translate to 11084 half-inch cuts?

Oooops...... John beat me to it. :thumbup:

 

[Last Visible Canary]

Yeah... to be honest, I've never really noticed much difference between any of the good knife steels in real use. Blade geometry and design made a huge difference. Steel type... not so much.

I've noticed a difference between infi, m2, and aus6.... kinda the opposite ends of the spectrum, but when you get to the extremes you can begin to see differences. between 154cm, bg42, s30v and m2? probably not as much. maybe when your hammering it into a log, but probably not so much for general ever day use.

 

[nozh2002]

This is all speculations. Only side to side testing by independent tester can really resolve this.

Busse made 2,771 cuts but ASI made only 300 on resharpened INFI 25 degree, on manufacturer edge it was 60. So it is only side by side testing can tell which is better. If Busse made 2,771 with INFI he probably stronger and better skilled then ASI so there is no point to compare their results, so side to side in same enviroment is what only can tell the difference.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[asi]

push cuts and slycing cuts - are different tests. and the tests I did, show not very much. I did not measured the weight to cut one piece during the tests, the geometry of the different blades were not identical and so on...

my cutting tests - just a small step forward (only for myself) to understand the influence of the geometry on the easy of cutting, some tryings in understanding of the steel influence, some investigations on handle ergonomics.

my opinion is following: due to the incredible service, warranty and the properties of the INFI the knives from BUSSE - are the best working knives. universal knives. the knives with great performance.

the other knives can beat the Busse knives in one or two tasks but overally saying - INFI - the best.

one more THANK to Busse family!