Fading popularity of traditional knives

[22-rimfire]

My little stag peanut I bought about a month or so ago also was quite well put together. I think it must be easier to manufacture smallish slip joints as GEC's were also quite well put together.

 

[22-rimfire]

...One thing I think needs mentioned. Does anyone think it is mere coincidence that GEC has run after run after run of 1 (sometimes 2 blade) "trappers" that resemble modern folders?

I can't understand the trapper's popularity. If they made more with a wharncliffe instead of a spey I'd consider it but most are made with the redundant spey and clip combo.

That is my favorite combination of blades and I prefer two blade slippies over singles. The only advantage to the singles are they are a little thinner in the pocket, hence easier to carry. The Trappers seem to be the universally preferred pattern.

Yeah, it's nice on a SAK that you can go from dull dull to shaving sharp in less than a minute. Literally five strokes each on medium and fine. But once you're set up to sharpen, the difference between that and two or three minutes for something like M390 gets lost in the mix. I get annoyed when a knife gets dull again in the middle of a job. At least SAK blades are ground nice and thin and cut OK even when dull. Even so, fast dulling is one reason I quit carrying SAKs. The 1095 from GEC is OK, although I'd like to not have to touch it up quite so often. It's in the SAK class for easy to sharpen and maybe holds an edge a bit longer. If I didn't know what I was missing, I'd be happier. Somebody compared knives to cars and that was spot on. The new muscle cars are leagues better in every way than their cousins from the 60s. There's no reason a traditional knife has to use technology from the 1960s any more than a car does. Traditional style says it all. Style is not materials. It's not construction methods. It's not how hard or soft the blade might be. It's the look and feel of the knife.

IMO, Case is chasing the low end of the market. Cheap knives made from cheap, easy to work materials. The problem is that the Chinese own that market. They make knives every bit as good for a fraction of the price. What happens if the Chinese up their game and start offering even better knives at that same low price point? I'm thinking specifically of better quality steel. 8Cr13MoV can be quite good and it's a bread and butter steel in China. The more the value proposition changes, the more customers will jump ship. I think the move Case is trying to make into modern knives is telling. Case may be in trouble. They're selling 1967 Camaros in today's world. That's a tough row to hoe.

I made essentially the same comment about today's "muscle cars" being much much better than the 60's and 70's versions. Things work better and are more efficient. Back in those days, you EXPECT to have to take your new car back to the dealer to have something addressed on warranty.... that seems not to be the case any more. You can thank the Japanese for this change in overall quality of cars.

In the 60's, 70's, and 80's it was the Japanese who challenged US knife manufacturers. Now it's the Chinese. Case has seen their share of profitability problems.

I also think the Chinese own the "cheap" slip joint market. It would be more apparent if the Rough Rider slippies were more available outside of one dominant dealer. They must sell absolutely a ton of those things. The Frost's don't really compare well and they certainly don't age as well. Theoretically, they should be equal, but they aren't.

 

[gaj999]

I don't care what the Chinese do, I'll never buy their knives. Will gladly pay three or four times the price for a Case even if the Chinese knives are allegedly of the same quality. And I would LOVE to have a 1967 Camaro, or a 1968 Mustang.

What the general buying public does is really the issue. Some care about COO, some don't. The bigger the value difference, the more that will buy and the fewer that will stick to their guns. I'm old enough to remember that exact same attitude about cars. Most people wouldn't touch a Honda, Toyota, or a Datsun with a ten foot pole. It doesn't take too long looking around on a road or in a parking lot to see how that has changed ...

An original Camaro or Mustang isn't one of your choices, sorry. Just one that's built to the same level, but new. Much as I liked those cars back then, I sure wouldn't want one as my only vehicle today. Reliability sucked. Safety sucked. Mileage sucked. They polluted more sitting in the driveway than a new car does going 60 down the highway. Comfort was marginal. They were junk at 100,000 miles. Accessories we take for granted didn't exist. And compared to midrange performance cars today, cornering and acceleration sucked. Most people who would buy one would do so for nostalgia and they would sit parked much of the time. Kinda like some traditional knives ...

I'm not here to rag on Case. I really hope they can get their act together and manage to survive and thrive. The path I see them taking makes me worry that we'll lose another knife manufacturer one of these days. I've seen this movie before. I hope I'm wrong this time.

 

[gaj999]

I made essentially the same comment about today's "muscle cars" being much much better than the 60's and 70's versions.

That was you! Thanks for that, it really made sense. Sorry I was too lazy to scan back and give you credit.

 

[Dean51]

There is something I don't understand about this sub forum. Post a Chinese clone in the General forum and you'll be tared and feathered, then run out on a rail. Yet the traditional forum with all it's talk of tradition, has a thread dedicated to Chinese Case clones. RR is directly cloning Case and targeting Case's customer base. Even going so far as to make a Vietnam Veteran's Commemorative.

I wonder what this forums members will say if or when, Case closes it's doors and becomes another
Chinese name. It wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened.

Case has sat on their collective smurfs for the last 60 years with the only change being dropping a few patterns and adding colors. I make no secret of the fact I'm not a Case fan but I want to see them succeed. Unlike GEC, Case has the tooling to work different steels. If they're using 1095 post the specs and bring out AUS-8 so the stainless is as good as the carbon steel. Heat treat those steels to hold an edge. They need to follow GEC's example and bring out some new interesting patterns.

Like gaj999 said it ain't 1967 anymore Case can not survive building 1967 products in 2018. Anymore than Ford or Chevy could survive building 1967 models in 2018.

 

[22-rimfire]

gaj999, It would have taken some real effort to find that post. As I recall Hickory & Steel didn't agree with me one bit. That's okay. I'm comfortable with my opinion and my experience tells me that you hit the nail on the head.

Added: The Rough Rider (RR) dealer/manufacturer has "manufacturer's days" weekend in October every year and the various manufacturers send reps to their store like a knife show. It really is sort of a great event. The folks there told me that a Case rep visited the Rough Rider display and handled a bunch of knives and was simply amazed that the Chinese could produce such a quality slip joint that easily rivaled Case's stuff for such a low retail price. That rep, I'm told bought something like a dozen RR's to take with him.

 

[Danke42]

I think the cars are an excellent comparison because man they sure look good. 100x better than then new ones in some cases.

But with my Honda truck (or motorcycle) I can jump in it and drive 7 hours in summer heat, in snow, or in rain and never expect to be stuck by the side of the road at least once fixing something. A friend of mine fulfilled his teenage dreams of a Beaumont Arcadian (Canadian GTO) and Mustang fastback and they're awesome to look at. The Beaumont is a convertible and going down the Hwy on a warm summer night in the back seat is like you're on a comfy couch under the stars. But he just knows every trip something is going to work loose and he'll be in a rest area calling his wife who will then be phoning his friends to go out and meet with tools or parts. So he's selling them and going back to turn key.

A real form vs. function kind of deal. But if you're not Jay Leno it can be tough.

 

[Peregrin]

This thread has and is drifting all over the place. Somehow it's become the latest love/hate carbon or stainless thread, love/hate Case thread, love/hate Chinese knives thread.
Let's get back to the "Fading popularity of traditional knives" topic. Then again maybe we've exhausted all reasonable discussion on that topic and the thread should be closed.

 

[JohnDF]

There is something I don't understand about this sub forum. Post a Chinese clone in the General forum and you'll be tared and feathered, then run out on a rail. Yet the traditional forum with all it's talk of tradition, has a thread dedicated to Chinese Case clones.

There's a simple answer to this...
Our little corner of the interwebs is (mostly) populated with an older bunch of guys. We grew up in a different era where we respected authority and followed the rules. So here on The Porch, we respect the rules and value our Moderators. They say "No Chinese knife bashing", so there is no Chinese knife bashing. Simple.

 

[Dean51]

There's a simple answer to this...
Our little corner of the interwebs is (mostly) populated with an older bunch of guys. We grew up in a different era where we respected authority and followed the rules. So here on The Porch, we respect the rules and value our Moderators. They say "No Chinese knife bashing", so there is no Chinese knife bashing. Simple.

Understood

 

[jc57]

Let's get back to the "Fading popularity of traditional knives" topic.

Right then.

So there is no real way to answer this question without sales figures from some huge retailer that sells both moderns and traditionals, and the trends over the years.

You also have to quantify a time frame to determine a trend. If you are looking over a long time, then I think everyone will agree that traditional knives are fading in popularity.

Or are we talking about the trend since the recent recession allegedly bottomed out- say 2010? Or just in the past couple of years?

And are you talking about total sales in units or dollars? Are you looking at total numbers, or the percentage of sales relative to moderns? Do you take into account the secondary market? Something that is losing interest in general would have a declining resale market, too.

Without some actual numbers and a clear definition of what measurable criteria we are using to judge "popularity" it's all just conjecture.

As far as which manufacturers will survive or not - next recession will sort that out for us, whether that is sooner or a later.

 

[22-rimfire]

.... Without some actual numbers and a clear definition of what measurable criteria we are using to judge "popularity" it's all just conjecture.

As far as which manufacturers will survive or not - next recession will sort that out for us, whether that is sooner or a later.

I dread the sorting out. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that Queen finds a way to get back into the ball game. They were certainly a major competitor to Case and could produce a great knife if they paid attention. The conjecture is fun discussion as everyone's opinion counts.

 

[jec88]

I don't think Case as a company is necessarily hurting as seems to be the opinion. The outlet I go to said over the last 3 years have been very good at that location. Us that are on the forums aren't really a representative of what people buy in person. Brands of knives popular on the forums, you might never see in a display case, and Case has a niche for the folks that won't buy a knife sight unseen over a website. They still have a huge collector following for new and old knives. If you ever bid on one, it can be tough. Those guys are cutthroat! Case is my second favorite brand with Buck being my favorite. I'd hate to see any more USA knife makers fail and I worry about Buck more than Case. In my opinion, Buck has really stepped it up this year and have really offered what people on the forums have been asking for.

I found this on Case:

W R Case & Sons Cutlery Company is a privately held company in Bradford, PA and is a Single Location business.

Categorized under Knives: Butchers', Hunting, Pocket, Etc.. Our records show it was established in 1993 and incorporated in PA. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 86792791 and employs a staff of approximately 365.

 

[jec88]

Mods, I hope this is okay, just for comparison to compare knife companies' profits. I have no idea how accurate it is but if accurate is interesting. If accurate, It would show how more traditional companies rank among more modern knife companies.........and trads look to be more than holding their own. From Manta.
Case:
Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 86792791 and employs a staff of approximately 365.
Buck:
Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 63631917 and employs a staff of approximately 245.
Benchmade:
Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 41161537 and employs a staff of approximately 140.
Spyderco:
Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of less than $500,000 and employs a staff of approximately

 

[Bjoern]

I think for EDC nothing can beat a traditional slip joint. For special purposes there may be special knives needed, e.g. when i do work outdoors at home i have a OHO Vic Forester in a belt sheath. But a EDC knife is a knife that should be there when you need it and when you dont need it you should be able to forget about it. I can't do that with modern folders. I can't forget about something clipped to my jeans, or something that could open itself in the pocket because its just held closed by a detent ball or bulky OHO holes and hole-ripping thump-studs. I like traditionals because they are practical, safe to use and carry and do what knives are meant to do-cutting. But i remember when i still lived with my parents some 20 years ago, some day i just wanted a knife. And i bought -unknowing as i was- a CRKT M16 because i found it cool. Until i wanted it to use it for some cutting. Impossible with that blade profile. After that i tried a lot of knives modern folders of all sorts but always came back to traditionals. But i do understand people who need those knives for special purposes and those who just want them to show off and stab car doors or something. But yeah- maybe thats why traditionals are fading in popularity- because many people carry knives although they don't need them but just find it cool to carry a knife or probably just to compensate their low self-esteem. And of course, availability is also a problem. Where i live, there are no traditionals available except victorinox. When you want one, you have to know what you want and get it online.

 

[gaj999]

So there is no real way to answer this question without sales figures from some huge retailer that sells both moderns and traditionals, and the trends over the years.

Good point. So we'd be beating a dead horse. If we could find the horse.

 

[315]

I’ve skimmed through this thread and seen a lot of good points. It may have already been covered but in my opinion the drop you see in traditional knives has to do with the amount of offerings out there today. I can remember when and where I bought my first 340T. It was the Surplus store in Platteville WI and for some reason $12 sticks out in my head. They had some Uncle Henry’s, Buck and maybe a couple others but being a kid $12 made more sense than $19 so I bought it. Other than a Kabar or some old military fixed blade there really were not a lot of options. I don’t even think they had a Case display, but I could be wrong.

Go into a store today and you’re flooded with options and if I were that kid again today who knows what I’d select. The one handed openers became appealing to people because they were different and neat and in a certain environment a bit practical. Virtually everyone I work with and around carry them, although they rarely get used for anything other than the occasional envelope or apple at lunch. But while they may be great for pig sticking, they don’t fit into the tight spaces very well.

I sort of rambled but I really do think it has to do with all the offerings and “coolness” that marketing has to offer. And marketing works, I used to drink Coke, now it’s Dr. Pepper and Pepsi.....all because of marketing

 

[gaj999]

Mods, I hope this is okay, just for comparison to compare knife companies' profits....

Annual revenues are not annual profits. Revenues can be high and profits low or even negative. And that Spyderco number looks really suspicious to me. That said, annual revenues actually provide a better window into popularity than profits, by a mile. Now we need numbers from all the other big knife manufacturers and we'll be getting somewhere. Kershaw? Boker? Vnox? Rough Rider? Who else do we need?

 

[Horsewright]

So waaaay back on page ten I said I would read all this and get back. Best Arnold voice "I'm back". OK, so are traditionals fading in popularity? Hmm lets ponder that.... a bit while we wander around the shop and see what I've got to do....today and tomorrow and tomorrow's tomorrow.

Made four out of these five. These are here for different sheaths. The four I made were bought with an additional sheath as well as the one they came with. Will have to finish sewing these up and get em wet molded and fitted to the knives this morning before I start working with steel.

That'll take an hour or two. Then I'll start in on the batch I'm currently doing the post heat treat grinding on. Got the full flat ground blades done. Stainless is finished to 220 grit and then a Scothbrite belt, the damascus is taken to 800 grit and then etched. The A2 bowie is done to 400 and then Scothbrite but there is a slight divot still, ya can't see it but ya can feel it. Got more grinding to do on that one. Probably what I'll start with.

When I closed up the shop yesterday I was working on the three kitchen knives in this batch. All the grinding here is post heat treat.

Still have the hollow ground blades in this batch to do the grinding on too. Have to set my equipment up differently so thats why I do the flat grinds and the hollow grinds separately. The dark ones are the damascus. The shiny spot on the damascus blade on top is the RC test. 60 RC on the nose. AEB-L and the A2 all run 62RC.

When ya make knives there are always some oops, no matter how good you are or how many you've made. I tend to save the oops from several batches and then throw em in with a new batch. The two on the right will get re handled. The three on the left will also have their bolsters sawed off and we'll start over with a clean blade.

The last several batches the wife has been helping out as much as possible. So while I'm grinding the last few days she's been sitting at the bandsaw cutting steel.

Worked herself into a conundrum on this piece of AEB-L. I had, in the past told her to do a line from top to bottom of the same model and then cut that off the six inch wide piece of steel. She felt that was wasteful and it is, a little, so she juxtaposed all the different knives together to get an extra couple blades out of the steel. We did. Now cut them sons of guns out! Probably won't do that again. I'll have to drill lines of holes to connect the saw cuts. Same model top to bottom, cut.

After they are all prepped and ready to go to heat treat and after the batch that I'm already working on is done; look we get to start all over. These are already back from heat treat.

And everybody wants me to make slip joints too! Are traditionals fading in popularity? Not from my perspective. In fact I'm banking on them not, literally.

 

[jec88]

Annual revenues are not annual profits. Revenues can be high and profits low or even negative. And that Spyderco number looks really suspicious to me. That said, annual revenues actually provide a better window into popularity than profits, by a mile. Now we need numbers from all the other big knife manufacturers and we'll be getting somewhere. Kershaw? Boker? Vnox? Rough Rider? Who else do we need?

I agree, there are alot of other variables to consider and the Spyderco had me scratching my head, but that is what was listed. I just tried to pick 2 companies that are more traditional and 2 that are more modern.
For revenues, I'll just show Case and Benchmade since BM makes pretty modern stuff and is well known:
Case:
Revenue $50 to $100 million (USD) per year
Benchmade:
De Asis doesn't disclose exact revenue figures, but did say that Benchmade generates annual revenue upwards of an estimated $20 million.

Alot of other variables, but modern companies seem to be holding their own? I would have thought the above would be reversed.