Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user,

[Cursum Perficio]

Gets a bit complex sounding with legal interpretations/ramifications/misunderstandings going on.

I like it simple.
I want a Shirogorov. I really want a Shirogorov.
I can't afford a Shirogorov.
I will not by a cheap imitation/replica/clone/copy or whatever of a Shirogorov.
Why not?
Because I want a Shirogorov.

 

[sabre cat]

I understand the objection to clones and copies, but in some ways the barn doors have been open for a long time.

I'll propose a few knife designs- the Loveless style hunter, the Randall #1, and the Kabar military knife. There are a lot of custom makers that make knives that look like the Loveless hunter. I think I have 3 of them by different makers. I see various Loveless styles for sale on this forum, and they don't get criticism, they get praise. Also there are a lot of manufacturers that make knives that look like the Randall #1 and the Kabar. Where is the outcry over this.

I realize this is a knife forum but for a minute consider the Rolex Submariner watch. Almost every big watch company has made a model that looks like the Rolex sub. I don't see any outcry over this either. In the watch collector world, these are not called copies, they are called "homages".

I don't know what the answer is, but if we are going to complain about copies then we have to be consistent about it.

And there my friends, is the problem in a nutshell. We are not consistent about it. And, we never will be.

At least not until we can agree upon the meaning of words like homage, copy, clone, and counterfeit.

If Acme Knife Co. produces a knife like the beautiful Insingo folder from CRK but, does not have the same markings as the Insingo is it a counterfeit or a clone?
You tell me. If Acme makes zero attempts to market it as made by CRK and has made sure not to use name, logos or packaging from CRK, then in my mind it is not counterfeit. Copy, clone or homage? Sure. Legal? Maybe, maybe not. It just depends if they have the right to manufacture the knife.

There are some of us here that jump straight to "counterfeit" no matter how much of the knife is copied from another design. There can be a big difference between a homage and a counterfeit product.

To make matters worse, many of us, ...lets see... how do I put this....will verbally attack other members for their interest in Acme's products. Even to the point of condemning the morals of another member and tell him (or her) that their actions are harming the knife industry, our hobby, and our forum.

I question if this is the best way to handle the problem and I am still waiting for someone to explain how these copies, clones and homage knives really damage our hobby and this forum. I also question just how much damage they cause the knife industry.

Please take note that I am not including counterfeit products here.

 

[skyhorse]

I would like to think people that take the time to read B/F realize you're only going to get what you pay for.
http://www.akti.org/news/contending-with-counterfeits/
Sal Glesser's Avatar Sal Glesser Sal Glesser is offline
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Hi Greg,

Thanx for the analysis. A bit shocking.

Dennis,

It hurts our long developed reputation. It dimishes our high quality reputation. It cheats the customer. It creates a question as to the integrity of an entire country. And in time it will surely hurt our sales, as it did in '99-2003 when the Endura and Delica copies were everywhere....and they didn't even say Spyderco on the knife.

sal

 

[Sirryacus]

If it is not what would be considered "Rightfully Produced" by the original creator (or current owner) with their consent, Yes.

To be honest, if You personally made a knife, someone else copied it, sold it and donated all of the proceeds to you, I would Still be against it.

I don't care where the money goes, it is the mindset behind the person thinking that it is "OK" without being told it was.

You can get permission from someone who has been dead for 200 years and you don't know their name? good luck with that.

 

[stabman]

You can get permission from someone who has been dead for 200 years and you don't know their name?

Come on, no one is talking about ridiculous things like that, and you know it.

If I make a flint knife, and don't invent a time machine to get the approval of Og (after teaching him English, of course), it isn't an issue.

If I go and make a waved folder that has an AXIS lock and a Spyderhole without even bothering to mention those who made those innovations, then I'm being a dick.

 

[davek14]

In Article I, section 8, the U.S. Constitution:

Congress shall have power . . . To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.

https://www.conservativereview.com/...ent-office-to-blame-for-the-epipen-price-hike

It would be good for the community if many makers could use the Axis Lock now that the intended patent has run it's course. I hope that happens.

BTW: I use allergy drops now and am required to purchase an Epi-Pen yearly. I was on allergy shots just north of 25 years ago and had to buy Epi-Pens then as well. It was around $500 recently with a coupon and around $25 back then.

 

[Sirryacus]

Come on, no one is talking about ridiculous things like that, and you know it.

If I make a flint knife, and don't invent a time machine to get the approval of Og (after teaching him English, of course), it isn't an issue.

If I go and make a waved folder that has an AXIS lock and a Spyderhole without even bothering to mention those who made those innovations, then I'm being a dick.

It's what I was talking about, just because people try to apply modern definitions shouldn't be my problem.

 

[sabre cat]

I would like to think people that take the time to read B/F realize you're only going to get what you pay for.
http://www.akti.org/news/contending-with-counterfeits/
Sal Glesser's Avatar Sal Glesser Sal Glesser is offline
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Hi Greg,

Thanx for the analysis. A bit shocking.

Dennis,

It hurts our long developed reputation. It dimishes our high quality reputation. It cheats the customer. It creates a question as to the integrity of an entire country. And in time it will surely hurt our sales, as it did in '99-2003 when the Endura and Delica copies were everywhere....and they didn't even say Spyderco on the knife.

sal

Well, I just went through all of that and although enlightening, it did not really address all of my questions or concerns. Seemed like the main focus was on counterfeiting.
I think we can all agree that counterfeiting is wrong and hurts the knife trade. However, in my mind, there seems to be more to it than just marketing a knife to deceive the buyer.

Now, for a clone. For sake of discussion, let's make it a PM2 clone. Let's say I pick one up as a loaner/beater knife so I don't trash my real PM2. Now, I am not going to expect the same quality of materials or workmanship as a real Spyderco. Why should I? And, I certainly do not expect Spyderco to honor any warranty claims or repairs.

Now, if I knowingly buy a clone, copy, etc. expecting it to perform like the real deal and send it to the real manufacturer to be repaired or replaced is a different issue. Then I am hurting everyone, including myself.

Using the standards above, please explain how I am bringing the integrity of a country into question. How am I cheating myself? How am I affecting the reputation of
manufacturer? I am sorry. I just don't get it.

If I plan to buy a new knife, I do my research and purchase from known, honorable sources, if possible. For the most part, I try to buy quality products with good designs and workmanship. If I can handle a knife before purchase, I will. When I purchase a knife that is a copy, clone or homage, I know that I am doing so. If the knife does not hold up, it is my problem. It is all on me.

 

[craytab]

In Article I, section 8, the U.S. Constitution:

Congress shall have power . . . To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.

https://www.conservativereview.com/...ent-office-to-blame-for-the-epipen-price-hike

It would be good for the community if many makers could use the Axis Lock now that the intended patent has run it's course. I hope that happens.

BTW: I use allergy drops now and am required to purchase an Epi-Pen yearly. I was on allergy shots just north of 25 years ago and had to buy Epi-Pens then as well. It was around $500 recently with a coupon and around $25 back then.

It is important to recognize this is a knife forum and not an epi-pen forum. It is also important to read the stance of counterfeits of this forum. Failure to do so is not recommended...

 

[skyhorse]

There is a reason legitimate Knife Dealers don't carry the knives in question.

 

[holdanedge]

Thank you, silly rednecks for getting my thread locked. Do any educated people enjoy knives or just White trash? See, you all here are in fact clones of real Human Beings. Well, that is Human beings that posses a Graduate degree at least. Count them on your hand here.

 

[RamZar]

"Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user..."

Nyet! Variations of the same theme.

 

[trevitrace]

Thank you, silly rednecks for getting my thread locked. Do any educated people enjoy knives or just White trash? See, you all here are in fact clones of real Human Beings. Well, that is Human beings that posses a Graduate degree at least. Count them on your hand here.

Yes. You have no idea how much so.

 

[holdanedge]

No doubt. Just like my picture was a fake.......

 

[davek14]

It is important to recognize this is a knife forum and not an epi-pen forum. It is also important to read the stance of counterfeits of this forum. Failure to do so is not recommended...

I don't remember mentioning counterfeits sir.

 

[craytab]

I don't remember mentioning counterfeits sir.

They are the subject of this thread.

 

[skyhorse]

"Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user..."

Nyet! Variations of the same theme.

Yes nothing but a play on words no matter how you slice it.
LMAO, such passion over cheap knock offs. Maybe we should do a Ganzo Ball Cap or T Shirt giveaway contest ?

 

[skyhorse]

Thank you, silly rednecks for getting my thread locked. Do any educated people enjoy knives or just White trash? See, you all here are in fact clones of real Human Beings. Well, that is Human beings that posses a Graduate degree at least. Count them on your hand here.

Lol, and your point is ?

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Back to discussing the topic and not each other, or I can close this.

 

[texassquarehead]

A company claiming their placement of a lanyard hole is intellectual property is a joke though. Unless its part of a mechanism that pops out and sharpens the blade....